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Army List: Space Marines

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:28 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'd reduce the cost but not for any of the reasons stated above. I'd reduce 'em because Tactical Marines are pish. If I could burn them from the army lists I would.




By the way, not joking. I really mean that.


Hi!

I happen to like them and use them pretty effectively. Why don't you like them?

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 pm 
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It's really because they're neither one thing or the other. If I want to use troops for close assault obviously I'd always opt for Assault Troops or Terminators (points allowing). If I want a bit of shooty shooty then Devastators are the chaps for the job.

I think the real moment where I lost respect for the Tacticals was in the transition from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition Space Marine. Tacticals couldn't even knock Void Shields down any more... hmph. What's the point any more?

Like I said, pish... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Assault Marines are for knocking the enemy off of the objectives and Tactical Marines are for holding the objective while the Assault Marines go clear the next one. Also, Tactical Marines are good at clearing enemy Infantry and Vehicles (and similar weight units). They also make good 'cannon fodder' though never quite as good at that as the Guard or Orks do.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:33 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Assault Marines are for knocking the enemy off of the objectives and Tactical Marines are for holding the objective while the Assault Marines go clear the next one. Also, Tactical Marines are good at clearing enemy Infantry and Vehicles (and similar weight units). They also make good 'cannon fodder' though never quite as good at that as the Guard or Orks do.


Hi!

Yup, that's a good summary. They hold ground, not take it. I usually bring them up as reinforcements, although I have used them on the attack via drop pods and thunderhawks.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Hi!

Mattman, a lot has been covered so far, as well as a few point are still up in the air (librarian power review). If you have a chance post a summary and I'll take a stab at some librarian stuff (unless you got your own ideas, your a lot more up to date than me on modern SM thngs).

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:28 pm 
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A minor point thats been bugging me, the sabre tank hunter. In the list, it is described as basically a rhino with a small turret containing an autocannon. The picture in the marine list shows it with an autocannon mounted in the hull, very much like an assault gun, like a stug or hetzer. The reason i bring it up is ive just spent ages converting some, and mine have the weapon in the hull.

Why the turret in the stat line?

Surely it should have a restricted fire arc to the front?

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:30 pm 
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Oh and could it not be upgunned, maybe a lascannon, it is described as a tank hunter after all.... :whistle

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Also, how about some stats for a thunderfire cannon, or is that just pretty much the new name for the rapier, with a shiney new model....?

Next one is the new? stalker, the AA rhino with the big cannons? Possibly just use the hunter stats?

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:08 pm 
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Yeah, the sabre is a bit of a weird one. Definitely shouldn't have a turret as the weapon is hull mounted.
The thunderfire seems to be a bit of a mix between the rapier and mole mortar.
Haven't checked out the stalker, will have to see what role it is meant to fill and if it differs much from the whirlwind and hunter.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Heres a link to the stalker

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catal ... od2160144a

I dont see how the thunderfire is related to the mole mortar though?

Good lord, just been having a look at some of the new stuff...stormravens...stormtalons.... when did they appear? As for these big daft looking centurions, i dont think we should bother with them....

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:09 pm 
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The thunderfire can fire subterranean shots, just like the mole mortar.

I have seen the stalker model, just haven't checked out the rules to see how they fit in with the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:14 pm 
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Hi!

I have decide on several things which I have included in the recent update for the spreadsheets. Most of these were proposed by Mattman and Riquende.

1.Marine HQ upgraded to +4 CAF

I would be amendable to making it +5 and just increasing the Chapter master to +6 for congruence sake.

2. Battle Company reduced to 800 points
3. Veterans Company increased to 1000 points with stat change to include -1TSM

The main differentiators between this company and Terminators are that the veteran company has more model and higher break point. This is not a trivial thing, since for all the terminators power 1 casualty is hurtful to them, less so for veterans. Also veterans have better range, although less attack dice.

I believe they are both comparable in power now and should cost the same.

4. Land raider helios cost adjustment to 350 (lowered).
5. Librarian power duplication: will discuss in separate post
6. Elite and PD1 added to all dreadnoughts.

Outstanding issues:

1.Land Speeder Typhoons & Tornado: too expensive or too small unit

My suggested solution is to have all formation be 5 landspeeders for 200.

2. Razorbacks too expensive but hard to balance (BP bonus etc...)

My suggestion is to use Mattman's IG idea for this. All razorbacks are a "add-on" support formation.

Razorback formation
3 razorbacks for 150 points
+2 to break point, +2 to VP

It would cost 600 to outfit the whole company, +6 to break point, +6 to VP.

3.Iron Hands Chapter way too strong (elite devas with regen..., 50 points single dread elite & HQ support card, get extra VP for wiping a complete enemy detachment... just check the special rules, you won't want to play another chapter).

I have never looked at these critically. Time to sit down and really inspect them under the microscope.....

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:23 pm 
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Hi!

While this particular post will pertain to the SM librarian, it really extends to the topic of psykers as a whole.

My goal is to:

1. Make psyker powers selection viable
2. Make psyker power effects congruent with their scale in the battlefield
3. Create viable choices and eliminate redundancy.

My first point is why not make a list of psychic power available for that army list and let players pick three for the game?

There is sufficient lore out there to make a list of 6 choices. For specific chapters and factions you could require a selection of a certain power.

If people favor this I will formulate a list for debate.

Regardless, powers should have fairly local effects. They can be good or even exceptional, but short ranged and limited to a model or perhaps a support formation in size.

Lastly the destroy demon and purge psyker should be one power. Daemons are essentially psykers, so they don't really need a separate power.

A substitute power will be added once people weigh in on the viability of a list of them.

Comments please. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:58 pm 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I have decide on several things which I have included in the recent update for the spreadsheets. Most of these were proposed by Mattman and Riquende.

1.Marine HQ upgraded to +4 CAF

I would be amendable to making it +5 and just increasing the Chapter master to +6 for congruence sake.

2. Battle Company reduced to 800 points
3. Veterans Company increased to 1000 points with stat change to include -1TSM

The main differentiators between this company and Terminators are that the veteran company has more model and higher break point. This is not a trivial thing, since for all the terminators power 1 casualty is hurtful to them, less so for veterans. Also veterans have better range, although less attack dice.

I believe they are both comparable in power now and should cost the same.

4. Land raider helios cost adjustment to 350 (lowered).
5. Librarian power duplication: will discuss in separate post
6. Elite and PD1 added to all dreadnoughts.

Outstanding issues:

1.Land Speeder Typhoons & Tornado: too expensive or too small unit

My suggested solution is to have all formation be 5 landspeeders for 200.

2. Razorbacks too expensive but hard to balance (BP bonus etc...)

My suggestion is to use Mattman's IG idea for this. All razorbacks are a "add-on" support formation.

Razorback formation
3 razorbacks for 150 points
+2 to break point, +2 to VP

It would cost 600 to outfit the whole company, +6 to break point, +6 to VP.

3.Iron Hands Chapter way too strong (elite devas with regen..., 50 points single dread elite & HQ support card, get extra VP for wiping a complete enemy detachment... just check the special rules, you won't want to play another chapter).

I have never looked at these critically. Time to sit down and really inspect them under the microscope.....

Primarch


I have pulled together all the comments so far and will make a post with all the various proposals in the next few days.
I will also post up a list of all the units that I propose to be included in the basic marine army list (I.e no chapter specific stuff).

A few notes about the above post:

Normal HQ to +4, Veteran HQ to +5 CAF and Chaptermaster to +6. Like that.

Could see the Vet company at 950pts, but not worried over 50pts. Vet detachment would go up to 350 as well?

LR Helios at 350 seems like a good start.
Need to review the LR Crusader stats and do we want to add the LR Redeemer? They are a standard option in 40k marine lists these days.

Would we want my updated dreadnought stats I posted above to also have Elite and PD(1). Common sense says yes since they are supposed to be "elite".

All Landspeeder units to be 5 models and 200 pts seems fine as to upgrade a Land Speeder with either assault cannons, twin multi meltas or the missile launcher is very similar in points in 40k. Only change I would propose to the stats is to give the Tornado an extra AD (in fact I would query all units with assault cannons to see if they have enough AD).

Not sure were you Razorback calcs come from, as it would take 18 of them to transport a whole company (need two for each rhino, assume the commander keeps his rhino) and with your cost of 150pts means they would cost 900pts.
Did you mean 6 Razorbacks for 150pts? If yes then I think the cost and choosing it as an upgrade option per detachment would work (in 40k the cost to transport a squad in a Rhino compared to Razorbacks is about a 3 or 4 fold increase, which tallys with the 150pts increase for a detachment of Razorbacks compared to a detachment of Rhinos). So it would mean you could upgrade a company for 450pts. Though I could see them costing 200pts given they give you extra survivability for your men and it would give the numbers nice and tidy.

I would say, hold off on any Chapter specific list discussions until the basic list has been agreed and finalised. When we have a good baseline, then we can work out how to fit all the funky stuff in.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:44 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I have decide on several things which I have included in the recent update for the spreadsheets. Most of these were proposed by Mattman and Riquende.

1.Marine HQ upgraded to +4 CAF

I would be amendable to making it +5 and just increasing the Chapter master to +6 for congruence sake.

2. Battle Company reduced to 800 points
3. Veterans Company increased to 1000 points with stat change to include -1TSM

The main differentiators between this company and Terminators are that the veteran company has more model and higher break point. This is not a trivial thing, since for all the terminators power 1 casualty is hurtful to them, less so for veterans. Also veterans have better range, although less attack dice.

I believe they are both comparable in power now and should cost the same.

4. Land raider helios cost adjustment to 350 (lowered).
5. Librarian power duplication: will discuss in separate post
6. Elite and PD1 added to all dreadnoughts.

Outstanding issues:

1.Land Speeder Typhoons & Tornado: too expensive or too small unit

My suggested solution is to have all formation be 5 landspeeders for 200.

2. Razorbacks too expensive but hard to balance (BP bonus etc...)

My suggestion is to use Mattman's IG idea for this. All razorbacks are a "add-on" support formation.

Razorback formation
3 razorbacks for 150 points
+2 to break point, +2 to VP

It would cost 600 to outfit the whole company, +6 to break point, +6 to VP.

3.Iron Hands Chapter way too strong (elite devas with regen..., 50 points single dread elite & HQ support card, get extra VP for wiping a complete enemy detachment... just check the special rules, you won't want to play another chapter).

I have never looked at these critically. Time to sit down and really inspect them under the microscope.....

Primarch


I have pulled together all the comments so far and will make a post with all the various proposals in the next few days.
I will also post up a list of all the units that I propose to be included in the basic marine army list (I.e no chapter specific stuff).

A few notes about the above post:

Normal HQ to +4, Veteran HQ to +5 CAF and Chaptermaster to +6. Like that.

Could see the Vet company at 950pts, but not worried over 50pts. Vet detachment would go up to 350 as well?

LR Helios at 350 seems like a good start.
Need to review the LR Crusader stats and do we want to add the LR Redeemer? They are a standard option in 40k marine lists these days.

Would we want my updated dreadnought stats I posted above to also have Elite and PD(1). Common sense says yes since they are supposed to be "elite".

All Landspeeder units to be 5 models and 200 pts seems fine as to upgrade a Land Speeder with either assault cannons, twin multi meltas or the missile launcher is very similar in points in 40k. Only change I would propose to the stats is to give the Tornado an extra AD (in fact I would query all units with assault cannons to see if they have enough AD).

Not sure were you Razorback calcs come from, as it would take 18 of them to transport a whole company (need two for each rhino, assume the commander keeps his rhino) and with your cost of 150pts means they would cost 900pts.
Did you mean 6 Razorbacks for 150pts? If yes then I think the cost and choosing it as an upgrade option per detachment would work (in 40k the cost to transport a squad in a Rhino compared to Razorbacks is about a 3 or 4 fold increase, which tallys with the 150pts increase for a detachment of Razorbacks compared to a detachment of Rhinos). So it would mean you could upgrade a company for 450pts. Though I could see them costing 200pts given they give you extra survivability for your men and it would give the numbers nice and tidy.

I would say, hold off on any Chapter specific list discussions until the basic list has been agreed and finalised. When we have a good baseline, then we can work out how to fit all the funky stuff in.

Matt



Hi!

A cost of 950 for the veterans is acceptable, like you say 50 points is not much.

Agreed on increase CAF for veteran HQ and chapter master.

We need to come up with stats for the extra land raider variants. If you have thoughts post them or I could do them if you like. :)

I agree that assault cannons should have extra attack dice. At least +1 more dice.

I keep forgetting the razorback transports 1 stand. :(

So I agree with 6 razorbacks for 200 points. That means 600 points for a full company.

I'll wait for you update before going further.

Primarch

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