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NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats

 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:39 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Something I noticed as I was going through the Tau book was that it specified that most of their Transports ARE able to carry their Walker class models (or more specifically, their Battlesuits) and the way it was phrased made it seem like this was an odd thing. Which it isn't in 2nd or NetEpic. (This may have been a strong motivator for me to make an option for "carries Walker".) This reference makes more sense if the source material (IE fairly recent 40K) does not generally allow Walkers in Transports.


Yeah, just read that, very odd. Though I am not sure why they were classed as walkers in the first place, all the Battlesuits are Infantry of varying bulkiness, like what a Centurian and a Terminator are to a normal power armour marine. In fact Tau don't have access to any sort of walkers, the Battlesuits are all Infantry, and the new Riptide is of Knight size, they completely skip walkers ::)

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Revising Transport. That could be a good idea. So we are back to the first version of Transport then, flat cost per stand and modified by various things. Right, I'll have to poke at that a bit, juggle some numbers, and see what I can get to work. It may be a while though, I'm not going to have a lot of spare time for about a month or so here.

I'm guessing that your sample modifiers list was just for example. I'm asking, as I am not aware of any model that can specifically carry Cavalry models, aside from things that can carry a Company formation.


Sounds good. Yeah the sample modifiers were just for example, though I would have the Cavalry carrying option there for completeness.

Checking back over things, it seems the Thunderhawk can carry bikes and land speeders to :o , so we have a cavalry carrying unit.
In all the Thunderhawk can carry the following things:
30 Power Armour Marines (6 Stands)
15 Terminators or Assault Marines (3 Stands)
10 Centurions (3 Stands approx, I am assuming 3 models to a stand since they usually come in 3 men squads)
10 Bikes, 2 Bikes = 1 Attack Bike as well (6 Stands)
6 Dreadnoughts (6 Stands, a Dreadnought seems to take up the space of 5 men)
6 Land Speeders (6 Stands)
Although they don't give rules for it, the fluff mentions Thunderfire Cannons being dropped by Thunderhawks or Drop Pods (one per pod), so I would say they take up the same space as a Dreadnought.
Nothing else that I can see in the marine list smaller than a Thunderhawk can carry Walkers, Cavalry and Support Weapons.

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Actually, no, the Chimera would not be carrying 4 stands if IG were considered Light. It's Transport would be less expensive than that of a Rhino, as the Chimera is only carrying 2 Light stands or 1 Medium compared to the Rhino being able to carry 4 Light or 2 Medium stands.


Right okay.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:13 am 
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hi,
Been away a while and have had a catch up reading through we are looking at something like this.

They are streamlined massively and can fit support formations in a small area. If they are to have different variants it will obviously become more complex. I think a list of transports at the beginning of a force book would be a good idea as they can be referenced to but will not need to be included in each company in full.

Cheers

Squiggle.


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NEP Formation V0.2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:39 am 
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Hi!

Very cool!

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:34 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Sounds good. Yeah the sample modifiers were just for example, though I would have the Cavalry carrying option there for completeness.

Checking back over things, it seems the Thunderhawk can carry bikes and land speeders to :o , so we have a cavalry carrying unit.
In all the Thunderhawk can carry the following things:
30 Power Armour Marines (6 Stands)
15 Terminators or Assault Marines (3 Stands)
10 Centurions (3 Stands approx, I am assuming 3 models to a stand since they usually come in 3 men squads)
10 Bikes, 2 Bikes = 1 Attack Bike as well (6 Stands)
6 Dreadnoughts (6 Stands, a Dreadnought seems to take up the space of 5 men)
6 Land Speeders (6 Stands)
Although they don't give rules for it, the fluff mentions Thunderfire Cannons being dropped by Thunderhawks or Drop Pods (one per pod), so I would say they take up the same space as a Dreadnought.
Nothing else that I can see in the marine list smaller than a Thunderhawk can carry Walkers, Cavalry and Support Weapons.

That list is fascinating. Essentially it says that a Thunderhawk can carry 6 stands of normal Infantry, Cavalry, or Walker and 3 stands of Bulky Infantry or Support Weapons. At least for the Thunderhawk, neither Walker or Cavalry count as Bulky.

I have the feeling that for most Transports Walker and Cavalry should count as Bulky, but then have a cost modifier that can be applied to ignore that restriction.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:56 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Mattman wrote:
Sounds good. Yeah the sample modifiers were just for example, though I would have the Cavalry carrying option there for completeness.

Checking back over things, it seems the Thunderhawk can carry bikes and land speeders to :o , so we have a cavalry carrying unit.
In all the Thunderhawk can carry the following things:
30 Power Armour Marines (6 Stands)
15 Terminators or Assault Marines (3 Stands)
10 Centurions (3 Stands approx, I am assuming 3 models to a stand since they usually come in 3 men squads)
10 Bikes, 2 Bikes = 1 Attack Bike as well (6 Stands)
6 Dreadnoughts (6 Stands, a Dreadnought seems to take up the space of 5 men)
6 Land Speeders (6 Stands)
Although they don't give rules for it, the fluff mentions Thunderfire Cannons being dropped by Thunderhawks or Drop Pods (one per pod), so I would say they take up the same space as a Dreadnought.
Nothing else that I can see in the marine list smaller than a Thunderhawk can carry Walkers, Cavalry and Support Weapons.

That list is fascinating. Essentially it says that a Thunderhawk can carry 6 stands of normal Infantry, Cavalry, or Walker and 3 stands of Bulky Infantry or Support Weapons. At least for the Thunderhawk, neither Walker or Cavalry count as Bulky.

I have the feeling that for most Transports Walker and Cavalry should count as Bulky, but then have a cost modifier that can be applied to ignore that restriction.


Its like someone at GW thought about these things ;).

Giving walker/cavalry bulky might be a simple way of tying to manage transports although there would still need to be restrictions on some transports (cavalry and walkers not being carried about by land raiders etc).

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:22 am 
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Sorry, I should have used a few more words there. My intention was to say that Walker and Cavalry stands would count as 2 stands for most Transports that are able to carry them, but that there could a modifier to have them only count as one stand. Adding the Bulky ability to them should not be necessary, as they would only be able to be carried at all by models that pay for the ability to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:57 pm 
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Sounds good.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:58 am 
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Hey guys,

Small update. I had a go at running the infantry through the pointing system and these were the results.

Attachment:
Marine Infantry Points.jpg
Marine Infantry Points.jpg [ 106.54 KiB | Viewed 3749 times ]


What do you think?

You will notice I have adjusted the weapon ranges to those that I have discussed in my other post and also added Sniper Scouts.
Currently I am using a 0.5 multiplier on the Type/Move value for the Bulky rule, but it could be a a different value, or a fixed deduction. Even though I am planning for the Jump Pack rule to also give the Bulky rule, I haven't applied the multiplier to the Jump troops, if I do it drops the cost of the stand by about 10pts, and in reality the Jump Pack multiplier becomes a 0.75 (1.5 for JP and 0.5 for Bulky). Thoughts?

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:07 am 
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Hi!

I like the ranges. Nothing over 50cm. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:30 am 
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Some of the vehicle weapons will be obviously have some longer range weapons, but I don't think there is much in the marine list that is greater than 75cm.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:34 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Some of the vehicle weapons will be obviously have some longer range weapons, but I don't think there is much in the marine list that is greater than 75cm.


Hi!

As it should be. :)

On average infantry weapon ranges should be inferior to vehicle weapon ranges.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:58 am 
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Even the Whirlwind only has a range of 48" (50cm under this new system of ours) :)


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:06 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Even the Whirlwind only has a range of 48" (50cm under this new system of ours) :)


Hi!

Speaking of which, I wonder sometimes what roles certain elements occupy game wise. A whirlwind functions as mobile artillery support.

Does it really act like one under the rules? Not much difference between mobile and non-mobile infantry in the game.

Not necessarily points formula related, but food for thought, there are quite a few elements like this.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:33 pm 
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Non mobile weapons have rarely been used or seen, I think the only army that really has access to them in 40k these days is Guard, and they can theoretically take quite a few. Fixed weapon systems are something I would like to see more of, but in most cases most artillery type weapons are meant to be static, the tracks are only there to get them into position.
With regards to the Whirlwind it is definitely not meant to be static, everything about marines is supposed to be highly mobile, even their limited artillery, which moves twice as fast as Guard stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:35 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Non mobile weapons have rarely been used or seen, I think the only army that really has access to them in 40k these days is Guard, and they can theoretically take quite a few. Fixed weapon systems are something I would like to see more of, but in most cases most artillery type weapons are meant to be static, the tracks are only there to get them into position.
With regards to the Whirlwind it is definitely not meant to be static, everything about marines is supposed to be highly mobile, even their limited artillery, which moves twice as fast as Guard stuff.


Hi!

Unfortunately I have never been able to come up with something to simulate a whirlwinds "fast attack". I always wanted some "shoot and scoot" mechanic, but none I have seen so far seem palatable.

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