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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:33 am 
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C is Armor Save. As there are no changes to Save computation at this time, I did not include it to save space. I did include the overall Section listing that shows that "C" is Save.

I guess I should have made it clearer where new stuff began and ended. Edited the post above to make that clearer.

At the moment, "Wounds" is a Special Ability and thus falls into category F: Other. It currently has a value of 20 per Wound beyond one, as all models without a Wounds score are considered to have one Wound. If it becomes more commonly used, it's location and/or value may have to change. I suppose it could be a multiplier to the Armor Save value, as the higher the Armor Save is, the more valuable each Wound would be.

Good point. Providing a couple of examples, at least one for each formation type, would be a good idea. I'll work up a few of those.

At the moment, I'm thinking "Ablation" for the first group, as they get picked of in an ablative fashion and eventually hit the BP causing Morale checks and VP awarding. The second group could be called the "Leftovers" as that is basically what they are. If that term is too harsh, perhaps just calling that group "Broken" would be enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:16 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
C is Armor Save. As there are no changes to Save computation at this time, I did not include it to save space. I did include the overall Section listing that shows that "C" is Save.

I guess I should have made it clearer where new stuff began and ended. Edited the post above to make that clearer.

At the moment, "Wounds" is a Special Ability and thus falls into category F: Other. It currently has a value of 20 per Wound beyond one, as all models without a Wounds score are considered to have one Wound. If it becomes more commonly used, it's location and/or value may have to change. I suppose it could be a multiplier to the Armor Save value, as the higher the Armor Save is, the more valuable each Wound would be.

Good point. Providing a couple of examples, at least one for each formation type, would be a good idea. I'll work up a few of those.

At the moment, I'm thinking "Ablation" for the first group, as they get picked of in an ablative fashion and eventually hit the BP causing Morale checks and VP awarding. The second group could be called the "Leftovers" as that is basically what they are. If that term is too harsh, perhaps just calling that group "Broken" would be enough.


Hi!

I would agree that the formula for wounds should be a multiplier. I'd probably get that in since I suspect it may be used more than it is now.

The name "broken" for the second group sounds good. Not to thrilled with the first name, but its not a huge issue. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:46 am 
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Minor addition to the description of Break Point. Add the following sentence to the end of the second paragraph, just after the example about the Space Marine Company formation.

"Special Formations ignore the restriction that Command models are not placed in the first group."
______

In thinking about it a bit more, I am liking moving Wounds from a fixed value in Special Abilities to being multiplier in Armor Save. I'm going to do that for the current tweak run. I'm not sure yet as to the exact wording, but what I'm going to do is that a model with two Wounds doubles it's Save value, one with three triples it, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:59 am 
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Updated first two posts with most recent tweaks. Hopefully these will be the last major changes for a while, barring anything that may come out of discussions for the revision.

I'll get the values for Gold forces posted soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:52 pm 
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Can I offer one suggestion?

In the movement section, there is a bit of homogenization that I feel is inappropriate. This sort of goes along with my comment in the NE6 thread about Terrain being de-emphasized in 2nd Ed, even though it really is an important part of the game, making whole parts of the battlefield play differently, creating choke points, etc.

Quote:
Barricade, Trench, & Minefield are counted as one box. Same with Light & Standard Building and Fortification.


So Barricade and trench and maybe even crater I can see being combined. The net effect of these terrain features is that lighter vehicles can pass with a bit of effort, infantry need to put in a bit of effort, but not too much and larger vehicles likely can power through/over them.

Minefield, not so much. Nothing except skimmers can really move through a minefield unaffected. There are several units where this makes a functional difference that should have a points reflection(Gorgons, Death rollers, combat Engineers, Dozer blades if re-added)

As far as buildings go, Light buildings, based on the description would seem to affect smaller vehicles more than titans or even tanks. A typical light structure, like a house, hovel, shed, shack or garage would be easily destroyed and almost ignored by even a light tank or scout titan, a more robust standard building or fortification would require much more effort.

Long story short, I would say split out all terrain types for that section for posterity, combine standard and fortification if you like 10s or add a new type like crater if you prefer 12s ;)

I have a busy work day that I am ignoring as I write this, but if I get some time I will do a rework of the Terrain rules for NE6 and then we can think on this a bit more.

MM

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:21 pm 
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Also, I want to try to put this logic into a google spreadsheet. To avoid extraneous work, has anyone done this yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:28 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
Also, I want to try to put this logic into a google spreadsheet. To avoid extraneous work, has anyone done this yet?


Hi!

Not that I am aware of, so go right ahead and do one. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:00 pm 
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Dumb question:

Are the multipliers multiplicative or added them multiplied?


example with 10 as base and 1.5 as my 2 multipliers

10*1.5*1.5 = 22.5

10*(1.5+1.5) = 30

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:02 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
Dumb question:

Are the multipliers multiplicative or added them multiplied?


example with 10 as base and 1.5 as my 2 multipliers

10*1.5*1.5 = 22.5

10*(1.5+1.5) = 30


Hi!

I'll let Magnus tackle this one. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:30 pm 
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Access to the WIP file. View and Comment access only for now. I am doing the bulk of the work in Excel and importing it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DmgwpB7XwjU4nVI0iBujlL-hRXMSzfsfMZ8k71ZEOw0/edit?usp=sharing


Key Features:
- 100% more spreadsheet than REV 0
- Early '90s Greyscale theme for that true 2nd Ed Vibe!
- Basic conditionals for input checking
- Formulae based on add multipliers then multiply base
- Working math, Subtotals and Section Totals across 3 columns for ease of following values.
- Currently Formula Cells have no overwrite protection.

<Edit> Found and fixed a checking bug in the Movement calculation. It is kludged to work, but will display a "#VALUE!" error until Terrain Access and Movement Rate are input.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:37 pm 
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like it thanks, as explained to me it multiplicative. Maybe ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:04 am 
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madmagician wrote:
Dumb question:

Are the multipliers multiplicative or added them multiplied?


example with 10 as base and 1.5 as my 2 multipliers

10*1.5*1.5 = 22.5

10*(1.5+1.5) = 30



The first one is the correct way to process. Do not add the modifiers together before multiplying.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:15 am 
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madmagician wrote:
Can I offer one suggestion?

In the movement section, there is a bit of homogenization that I feel is inappropriate. This sort of goes along with my comment in the NE6 thread about Terrain being de-emphasized in 2nd Ed, even though it really is an important part of the game, making whole parts of the battlefield play differently, creating choke points, etc.

Quote:
Barricade, Trench, & Minefield are counted as one box. Same with Light & Standard Building and Fortification.


So Barricade and trench and maybe even crater I can see being combined. The net effect of these terrain features is that lighter vehicles can pass with a bit of effort, infantry need to put in a bit of effort, but not too much and larger vehicles likely can power through/over them.

Minefield, not so much. Nothing except skimmers can really move through a minefield unaffected. There are several units where this makes a functional difference that should have a points reflection(Gorgons, Death rollers, combat Engineers, Dozer blades if re-added)

As far as buildings go, Light buildings, based on the description would seem to affect smaller vehicles more than titans or even tanks. A typical light structure, like a house, hovel, shed, shack or garage would be easily destroyed and almost ignored by even a light tank or scout titan, a more robust standard building or fortification would require much more effort.

Long story short, I would say split out all terrain types for that section for posterity, combine standard and fortification if you like 10s or add a new type like crater if you prefer 12s ;)

I have a busy work day that I am ignoring as I write this, but if I get some time I will do a rework of the Terrain rules for NE6 and then we can think on this a bit more.

MM


I put those two sets of three entries together into one for the formula because all entries on the terrain chart (see page 30 of the core rules) for those are the same color for all model types. This was done for simplicity, but re-separating them would really not be a problem. All it would do is to increase the amount subtracted to get the baseline. Personally, I see no useful point in separating them as they are all the same color for all models, but if other people would prefer them separated it can be modified.

Crater does not have an entry on the chart on page 30, so thus cannot be combined with, or separated from, anything.

You do have a good point about deathrollas, dozer blades, etc. They probably should have a modifier to that model's terrain access value.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:51 am 
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madmagician wrote:
Also, I want to try to put this logic into a google spreadsheet. To avoid extraneous work, has anyone done this yet?


I have said in a few places that I am planning to work up an automated spreadsheet for this at some point. There is not much point starting just yet though as the formula may or may not be stable enough to support it. Still, since you have started, I have a few thoughts.

Yours seems to have a few language errors. I cannot tell if it has computation errors or not, as I cannot enter values.
For Example: Under Movement Type you have:
"Instructions: Place a "1" ONLY in the appropriate 'Modifier' column for your unit." This has two problems. First, there is only one column. Second, it seems to be saying that only one choice can be made. People would have to be able to make multiple selections, for example for a Command Skimmer.

The templates listed are not intended to be an exhaustive list of those available. Just a representative sample of the most common ones. Any spreadsheet will have to allow the user to input their template's length and width and calculate the value from that.

Same with Range. While the values given cover all known models in NetEpic Gold, people should not be limited to those values. Increments of 5cm should be available, probably from a pull-down box.

In fact, as a generality, I would suggest making most places where things can be selected into pull-down boxes. At least those things with fixed values. Examples would be: Model Type; Terrain Access; Move rate (2.5cm increments); Armor Save (including entries for Fixed Saves); CAF base value; common Weapons could be created ahead of time and selectable, otherwise all individual weapon stats could use this aside from Weapon Special Abilities; & Morale. The other options would probably be best as checkboxes, rather than a text field where the user has to type a "1" or any other numerical value. Well, aside from things like Wounds where the number of them is actually necessary.

With pull-down boxes, most of the language can be simplified. For example, the first one could be just "What type of Model are you building?" with a pull down with entries for: Infantry; Light Artillery; Cavalry; Walker; Vehicle; Heavy Artillery; Super Heavy Vehicle; Knight; Praetorian; Titan. These should be separated as then certain other options can be made available or unavailable depending on previous selections. An example of that would be that some Knights have the Terrain Access of Infantry, but no existing Super Heavy does, so they should not have access to that option.

I may have other thoughts on this later, but I really wasn't planning on thinking about this topic this much just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:03 am 
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Magnus, thanks for the thoughts,

This is really an early draft spreadsheet I have been hashing through while doing con-calls for work partly to familiarize myself with the points formula. I agree with drop down boxes and custom values and am kind of "keeping things in the open" until it is more finalized. Also, I am not 100% familiar with what limitations Google Docs has over Excel and I cannot work in google Docs when I am travelling for work, so for now I am keeping the master in Excel and publishing to Google when I have a second to upload or make a huge change.

One thing I know I cannot do in Google is VBA (which means I have to nest a zillion conditionals to validate input) and I am not sure If I can load up a second sheet with "variables" either.

Anyhow, I will keep chugging at it for now and see where I get!

oh and BTW if you want to take it for a spin, File->Make a Copy. Yes, the input validation is ugly as sin.... :spin

MM

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Last edited by madmagician on Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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