Agreed. It's what their stats add up to in the current structure though. I've been thinking that it may have the wrong values for one or more stats, as most really basic infantry are coming out as half their GW costs while many other models are coming out far higher than before. As exampled above, the Rhino (slightly more than double old) and the Thunderhawk (3.5 times higher).

With the price above, adding Rhinos to every detachment in the example would be 11 Rhinos (3 for each Tactical, 2 for each of Assault & Devastator, and 1 for the HQ) for a cost of 420 (rounded off) for a total Company cost of either 1130 or 1060.

Formation costs are (generally speaking) going to be a bit higher in this system than with the old points scheme, unless I can tweak it a bit.

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Hi!

Just remember we are under no obligation to make the points cost look like the old ones. They won't be, since we know that GW never balanced anything.

I'd worry more about a fair and balanced system. People will get used to any points cost as long as they feel it accurately represents the units utility in play.

Primarch

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Agreed, as long as all the armies are pointed using the same balanced system, it shouldn't be a problem, just strange to see something as simple as a rhino cost that much, but with the basic building blocks in place it should allow us to tweak.

Matt

Ah, but the real question is: Is it actually fair and balanced the way it is? The problem we have is that we just don't know without some play-testing. If someone is willing and able to do some of that (unfortunately I'm really not in a position to be able to do so myself) let me know what armies you are looking to field and I'll put more effort into getting values for those.

On that note though, all everyone needs to test Space Marines is posted above. Well, you'd have to construct the formations. If help is needed with that, let me know and I'll work up and post NEG (or whatever) formations' cost under this system.

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That is true. As long as it is fair and balanced for everyone, then all the armies will all be in the same boat.
I expect the cost of Falcons/Wave Serpents will be considerably more than we have seen previously (especially the new versions of them which are so much better than the older versions).

I will have to find some time in the next few weeks to fully convert the marine list into the new system, then I guess it would be wise to do an army like the orks to give the marines someone to fight against in playtesting.

Matt

You want Orks, you'll get Orks. In a few hours... still working on them. This time when I post their points costs, I'll post converted costs for NE Gold formations of them as well. I've found it's (reasonably) easy to work that out as I go. It just takes time.

Mind you, go right ahead and do the Orks in your format. I'm not at all familiar with the current force organizations or fluff, so I'm just putting new costs to old formations.

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Ere we go, ere we go, ere we go...

Ork units from NEG (the first cost includes modifiers for Morale and Command, but not Break Point or formation Type; the second cost is for a formation and includes BP and type and is rounded.) All are Morale 4 unless stated otherwise.

Model: New value (NEG); formation: cost (type modifier, BP number or "model" & modifier)

Freebooter Boyz: 4 (0); Special: 4 Boyz, 1 Kaptin: 45 (would be 50, but -20% for units not found in any other formation (unique), +10% for BP3, Morale 3)
Freebooter Kaptin: 28 (0)
Mekboy: 54 (100); Special: 1 Mekboy, 2 Gretchin, 1 Battlewagon: 80 (would be 90, -10% for some unique units, BP2)
Painboy: 42 (100); Special: 1 Painboy, 2 Gretchin, 1 Battlewagon: 70 (would be 75, -10% for some unique, BP2)
Runtherd: 41 (75); Special: 1 Runtherd: 40 (40, -20% all unique, +50% BP model, -30% single)
Stormboy Kaptin: 51.35 (?)
Warboss: 92 (~100); Special: Warboss, 5 Nobz, 2 Battlewagon: 520 (575, -10% some unique, BP 4)
Warlord: 122 (~200); Special: Warlord, 5 Nobz, 2 Battlewagon, 3 Stompa: 870 (965, -10% some unique, BP 6)
Weirdboy: 261.8 (100); Special: Weirdboy, 2 Minderz: 340 (281, -20% all unique, +50% BP Weirdboy)
Weirdboy Minderz: 9.8 (~25)

Bad Moon Boyz: 15.4 (25); BM Support: 4 Boyz: 60; BM Company: 15 Boyz, 4 Nobz: 510 (565, -10% Company, BP10)
Blood Axe Boyz: 9.8 (25); BA Support: 4 Boyz: 40; BA Company: 12 Boyz, 4 Nobz, 8 Rhino: 560 (620, -10% Company, BP12)
BA Kommando: 33.6 (30); BA Support: 4, 1 Kaptin: 205 (185, +10% BP 3, Morale 3)
BA Kommando Kaptin: 46.4 (55)
Deathskull Boyz: 9.8 (25); DS Support: 4 Boyz: 40 (BP2); DS Company: 15 Boyz, 4 Nobz: 440 (490, -10% Company, BP10)
Deathskull Shoota Boyz: 26.6 (43.75); DS Support: 4: 100 (BP2)
Evil Sunz Boyz: 9.8 (25); ES Support: 4: 40 (BP2); ES Support: 3 Boyz, Battlewagon: 60 (BP2); ES Company: 15 Boyz, 3 Nobz, 6 Battlewagon: 525 (585, -10% Company, BP12)
Goff Boyz: 15.4 (25); G Support: 4: 60 (BP2); G Company: 15 Boyz, 8 Nobz: 745 (830, -10% Company, BP12)
Gretchin: 2.66 (6.25); Support: 4: 10 (BP2); Special: 8: 20 (BP4) [Note: I'm rounding Gretchin off to 2.5 points per as they just aren't worth 5 points.]
Madboyz: ~9.8 (0); Support: 4: 40 (BP2) [Their Morale is odd, so counting that as no modifier for the moment.]
Nobz: 86 (50); Support: 4: 340 (BP2)
Snakebite Boyz: 12.6 (25); SN Support: 4: 50 (BP2); SN Company: 15 Boyz, 4 Nobz, 5 Boarboyz: 555 (620, -10% Company, BP12)
Stormboyz: 17.55 (30); Support: 4, 1 Kaptin: 135 (122, +10% BP3)
Wildboyz: 12.6 (18.75); Support: 4: 50 (BP2); Company: 15 Wildboyz, 4 Nobz: 475 (530, -10% Company, BP10)

Bikeboyz: 17.745 (20); Support: 4: 70 (BP2)
Nobz Warbike: 86 (40); Support: 4: 340 (BP2); Kult of Speed: 10 Warbuggies, 5 Nobz Warbike: 525 (585, -10% Company, BP8)
Boarboyz: 17.745 (20); SN Support: 4: 70 (BP2)

Killer Dread: 22.4 (25); Support: 4: 90 (BP2)
Onslaughter Dread: 42 (50); Support: 4: 170 (BP2)
Tinbot: 38 (30); MK Support: 4: 150 (BP2)

Battlewagon: 29.4 (35); Support: 3: 115 (90, +33% BP2)
Battlewagon Blastakannon: 50.75 (~35); replace Nobz carrying Battlewagon for +20 per model
Battlewagon Double Kannon: 39.2 (~35); replace Nobz carrying Battlewagon for +10 per model
Battlewagon Missile Lanucha: 60.2 (~35); replace Nobz carrying Battlewagon for +30 per model
Bonebreaka: 51.1 (50); Support: 3: 200 (150, +33% BP2)
Bonecruncha: 43.4 (50); Support: 3: 170 (130, +33% BP2)
Bowelburna: 52.238 (15); ES Support: 3: 210 (155, +33% BP2)
Braincrusha: 57.4 (65); Support: 3: 230 (170, +33% BP2)
Copter: 33.6 (30); Support: 5: 185 (170, +10% BP3)
Cyberwyvern: 43.4 (30); SN Support: 5: 240 (215, +10% BP3)
Doomdiver MagnaKannon: 81.2 (50); MK Support: 1: 95 (+50% BP model, -20% single unit on Support)
Flakwagon: 40.6 (35); MK Support: 3: 160 (120, +33% BP2)
Gobsmasha: 15.4 (20); ES Support: 5: 85 (75, +10% BP3)
Gutrippa: 40.6 (35); G Support: 3: 160 (120, +33% BP2)
Land Raider: 60.218 (65); BA Support: 3: 240 (180, +33% BP2)
Lungbursta: 44.8 (35); G Support: 3: 180 (135, +33% BP2)
Rhino: 22.418 (15); BA Support: 3: 90 (65, +33% BP2)
Scorcha: 21.875 (15); Support: 3: 85 (65, +33% BP2)
Spleenrippa: 32.9 (35); ES Support: 3: 130 (100, +33% BP2)
Squiggoth: 47.6 (50); SN Support: 3: 190 (145, +33% BP2)
Trukk: 18.218 (20); Support: 5: 100 (90, +10% BP3)
Warbuggy: 15.4 (20); Support: 5: 85 (75, +10% BP3)
Wartrak: 16.8 (20); Support: 5: 90 (85, +10% BP3)
Weirdboy Battletower: 275.8 (200); Support: 1: 331 (275.8, +50% BP model, -20% single)

Bubble Chukka: 31.36 (100); MK Support: 1: 40 (30, +50% BP model, -20% single)
Destrukta Rokkits: 64.26 (100); MK Support: 1: 75 (65, +50% BP model, -20% single)
Dragsta: 57.96 (100); MK Support: 1: 70 (60, +50% BP model, -20% single)
Kustom Kannon: 80.01 (100); MK Support: 1: 95 (80, +50% BP model, -20% single)
Lifta-Droppa: 58.66 (100); MK Support: 1: 70 (60, +50% BP model, -20% single)

Hop Splat Field Gun: 18.9 (30); Support: 5: 105 (95, +10% BP3)
Lobba: 12.6 (20); Support: 5: 70 (65, +10% BP3)
Shokk Attack Gun: 28.4 (25); MK Support: 4: 80 (BP2)
Zzap Gun: 6.3 (20); Support: 5: 35 (30, +10% BP3)

Pulsa Rokkit: 68.6 (85); MK Support: 3: 275 (205, +33% BP2)
Squig Katapult: 24.36 (35); Support: 95 (75, +33% BP2)
Soopa Gun: 204.8 (100); MK Support: 1: 245 (205, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale 3)
Traktor Kannon: 12.6 (15); Support: 5: 70 (65, +10% BP3)

Blasta Bomma: 524.6 (500); MK Special: 1: 525 (-20% all unique, +50% BP model, -30% single model in Special formation)
Bomma: 134.4 (100); Support: 3: 540 (405, +33% BP2, Morale 3)
Fighta-Bomma: 149.6 (65); MK Support: 3: 600 (450, +33%, BP2, Morale 3)
Landa: 126.4 (100); Support: 1: 150 (125, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale 3); Special: 5: 695 (630, +10% BP3)
Supa Trans Rokkit: 81.6 (50); Support: 1: 100 (80, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale - ); Special: 4: 325 (BP2)

Gibletgrinda: 156 (100); Support: 1: 185 (155, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale - )
Goffik Rokker Wagon: 198.9 (400); Special: 1: 200 (-20% all unique, +50% BP model, -30% single, Morale - )
Mega-Squiggoth: 330.4 (250); Support: 1: 400 (330, +50% BP model, -20% single)
Skullhamma: 189 (100); Support: 1: 225 (190, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale - )
Stompa: 128.1 (85); Support: 3: 510 (385, +33% BP2)
Super Stompa: 182.1 (300); Support: 1: 220 (180, +50% BP model, -20% single, Morale - )

Not including the Gargants at all just yet. Don't use Gargants, or for that matter Titans, when doing any play-testing please.

Also, you may note that using this pricing system the generic "Extra Boyz" formation goes out the window, as there are a few different costs for Boyz depending on Clan.

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Hi!

Sweet stuff Magnus!

I ask you, now that Mattman posted his formation ideas, do we need anything else to finalize the formulas?

This is not counting titans of course. For titans, weapons and hard point slots aside the only thing to look at carefully is the hull values. In other words the base cost of the titan before hard point locations are filled with weapons and other things.

We must keep in mind that the templates have changed and not having a frontal plasma reactor makes them very durable (several people have tested this). Thus the base cost for hulls should probably be higher.

Also, having abilities for titans may unnecessary, since the abilities are pretty race/army list specific, so why not just add those into the the base cost?

Lets see what I can put together.

Primarch

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Actually, Titans are *almost* done. Frankly the only thing not done is figuring out exactly how to put points values to the number of hit locations. While I had an idea a while ago, it has since evaporated, and thus your idea posted a while ago should work. That is, to rate all of the hit locations by Save value and figure out a value from there. Probably by dividing the total by some value, as one does not need to destroy every hit location to disable or destroy a Titan.

As to what more is needed, that would mostly be play-testing. Each faction has it's own unique abilities and modifiers that still need to be gone through. I'm part way through Chaos, Eldar, and Guard, all the way through Marine and Ork, and have not yet touched the rest.

When you say "abilities for Titans" are you talking about the experience system? If so, weren't you the loudest voice saying that such things should not ever be bought, but rather must be earned? I suppose I wouldn't really object to giving the abilities values, even if they cannot be purchased at 'Titan construction'. In fact, it's probably a good idea, as they may not all have the same cost. Still, we would not want to add all of the abilities into the base cost of each Titan, as they do not start with all of the abilities.

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Hi!

Some random musing on titan/units with hit location templates.

One idea I had was to calculate the armor value cost for one location of a given save and then multiply that by the amount of locations. While that sounds reasonable one thing against it is that weapons have a save on the template which is no a feature of the points formula. Also weapons sometimes have a disproportionate amount of space allocation on the template.

Another thing against this idea is that which aspect of the template would you take to calculate value? The frontal one may be an obvious choice, but it's also the one with the highest save values, so the cost would be higher and not necessarily representative.

At this point, its my only obstacle for an effective formula since, move and CAF can be easily calculated. We ahve workable formulas for weapons and Void shields can be assigned a value of +25 points per shield. Power fields should be 10 points since they are a one shot defense and also flicker. Holo-fields will have a base cost of +100 points.

However I am still searching for an effective way to translate a hit location template into a cost. We can agree all templates are not created equal, but what are the features of one that make it effective? Better saves? More locations? Less?

Any ideas and thoughts would be useful.

Primarch

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Hi!

It's been somewhat difficult to rate an "average" value for the locations. There is a degree of uniformity amongst the templates in regards to saves that perhaps makes differentiating them more difficult. The only real differentiators is number or size of the template. Perhaps if I were to assign the armor save the value according to it in the armor part of the formula as add all of them together? Divide that total by the number of locations and use that number as some sort of multiplier?

I'll give it some more thought.

Ultimately playtest will indeed be the final arbiter, but if the formula is done we can proceed to costing everything up (which you've started to do) and applying it to the new formation structure.

By titan abilities, I was not referring to the experience system but a handful of descriptors applied to titans like the "agile" tag for eldar titans. If mostly Eldar titans agile, then just assign a cost to their basic cost instead of an additional cost for being agile.

There aren't many of those (agile is the only one that I can remember), so it may not be an issue.

Primarch

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Exactly what I had in mind. I can see two primary ways to go about this. There may be others, but I'm just not seeing them.

Ultimately, the size and shape of the template must be determined by the size and shape of the model to which it applies. What I haven't done yet is to take some measurements of the models themselves and see if there is a mathematical relation between height/width of the model to the number of boxes vertically & horizontally in the Template. IF there is, then that should be involved in how we determine cost for that. That's a big IF though.

If that doesn't work out, then what we'd probably have to do is to add up all of the values for every location and divide by some number, probably two or four. Not an absolute average, as the number should still be large, just not astronomically large. For example, a Warhound Titan has 22 hit location boxes (Front, Rear, Left, and Right sides) of which 19 have 2+ saves, 2 have 3+, and 1 has 4+. Using the same values as for other units (IE, 4 points per point of save bonus), that is 19*5*4=380 plus 2*4*4=32 plus 1*3*4=12 for a total of 380+32+12=424 then the current, total cost of a Warhound hull (no weapons) is 701. That seems rather high. Dividing the hit locations value by 2 brings the hull cost to 489. Still a bit high, but better. Dividing by 4 is 383 and dividing by 5 is 361.8. Probably the best is dividing by 4, as that's the number of sides a figure has.



Er, you seem to be saying "Yes, it's not done yet, but since it's done, let's move on..." Even if not actual play-testing, it needs some review. What do people think about the values being generated? Do they seem decent compared to the stats? Or are they way out of line? We really need some other people, not just you (primarch) or I to look over them and see what they think. That's really why I'm pushing to points-up all of the current units. Not because I think the system is done, but because I think it isn't and want to get feedback from informed sources.



Ah, gotcha. There are a few keyword terms that are primarily found on Titans, but not only there on Titans. Agile is one (also found on the aforementioned Warhound Titan), as are Power and Void Shields (a few Super Heavy and/or Praetorians have these too). For the moment, I've rated Power Shields at 5 per and Void Shields at 10 per shield. Also, each Weapon Hardpoint I'm currently valuing at 15 per. I haven't gotten to Eldar, Ork, or Tyranid Titans yet, so they may have a couple more abilities to define values for.

Your comment to not define values for the terms but to just adjust the base cost for the unit is redundant, as either way the cost of the model is adjusted, presumably by the same value. Either way, the model has the ability and it's price is adjusted because of having it, so it may as well be treated in the same way as every other model in the system.

Actually, the way I'm applying Agile is as a multiplier to the type/movement value rather than as a fixed number. This is because the faster a Titan can move the more it benefits from Agile, so in a way I'm already doing what you suggested. Shields and Hardpoints are just fixed values though.

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Hi!



I'll leave that one to you, even thinking about it give me a headache.



You lost me here. How did you get from 424 to 701? Also what number are you using to divide by to get the costs you list and how did you get it?



Well yes!

Thing is "who" are the informed sources?

Many may follow the thread based on the amount of "views", but actually commentary is limited to a few.

I'm thinking most true you (for the solid math) and Mattman (for the formation scheme) and are more or less on board with what has been said, otherwise I would expect more resistance by now.




I didn't think about assigning values to hard points, just shields and other things. That is a good idea.

You and Mattman seem to be proceeding at a good clip. I would continue with your ideas and making them concrete. I figure any true feedback won't be until its more or less "done" as a "fuller" list of formations and costs.

Primarch

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If someone wants to supply me with 2K forces I'm happy to play test a battle...

Can do:

Marines
IG
Eldar
Orks
Chaos
Squats

Can't do: fliers of any kind other than Squat Overlord Airships.

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Hi!

Thanks!

Primarch

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