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Total overrun!

 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:38 pm 
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Hello again people!

So, another epic mayhem went down in the far north of Sweden this weekend and boy oh boy, was it a massacre! Now, as gracefully as anyone I´ll accept a defeat but this was absurd. OK, we fielded each two 8000 p armies, enough (we thought) for at least two days of epic entertainment. Since we talk epic all through the semesters but can only play once every six months we had geared up big time. I had prepared a lot of scenery (Pettan can show you some photos) and so on and so forth.
I played Tau, a new acquaintance, an army that could be difficult to play but had a lot of heavy hitting fire-power to back the lack of CAF. Pettan ran his old Squat warmachine, a cookie that could be more than a match, but I thought, not unbeatable. I was wrong.
Actually, the odds were theoretically at my favour, we had plenty of forests and also a deep gorge running through the middle of the field with just one bridge. Some scattered buildings and each one hill in the deployment area. So I thought, that this will be easy-peasy. I did everything right in the movement phase, eased in the battlesuits into cover just after they had unleashed some fire on the fly shots at a surfacing mole, nudging my other armored units into cover, waiting to get a clean shot. I even set up the stealthed units correctly poising them to use their markerlights. A manta and four (4!) moray support ships hovered ready to unleash hell. Then the squats started to shoot.
We just played out the first turn, after where half of the Tau force was doomsday cannon fodder.
I will not whine at the chagrin of defeat but to make it an even match something has to be done either to the Squats (overpowered) or to the Tau, in this case both outgunned and outCAFed.

1. First of all the Tau support ships stay on low altitude, making them ripe targets for virtually all enemy units, forfeiting the bonus of the +25 cm.
2. The Tau deflection shields, whith one in every three shots going in, a volley of battlecannon shots suffices to bring them down.
3. Not being able to use markerlights on the fly, something that makes the stealth suits useless. There will always be units close enough to see them, directing barrage (bikes in this case). Obliterating them before they have chance to act.
4. Lack of real murderous firepower. The Tau should have an equivalent of the Cyclops/Magnus the red/Titan plasma destructor, something to really deliver a threat to all the heavily shielded units out there. Something to outweigh their measly CAF.
5. Not being able to transport the Kroot in any way (because of unit size constraints), making them nice christmas cinders in the rear.

To home in on the squats,

1. The Overlord Airships, virtually unreachable, indestructible flying battlestations. They take out all aircraft within 75 cm, with their first fire, no negative modifiers policy. +25 cm for all units because they fly high, so infantry never will come close enough. Not counting their staggering rate of fire 10 5+ shots. I´ve never liked this unit because of it´s invulnerability.
2. They are mobile as well as _extremely_ shooty. The Praetorians move and shoot in first fire, they have highly mobile, cheap troops with high CAF as well as skimmers with the same capabilities, the list goes on and on.

Well, am I the only one to experience this or was this battle just a fluke?

Cheers

/j


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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:37 am 
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Hi!

Give me a run down on the army lists of both sides and perhaps the battlefield deployment and I'll give you my analysis.

If I find a problem its probably on the Tau side. Squats have over a decade of play test behind them. Some units are good, but none are of a level that I consider "overpowering".

Tau MAY need some tweaking.

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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:04 am 
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The Tau is an interesting list.  We playtested it to pieces (there are a lot of reports on here if you go back enough, and many more that didn't make it here), and it would be fair to say that the Squats are their nemesis.  I do disagree somewhat with Peter as the Squats were the strongest Army in the SM2 days and remain very powerful in NetEpic.  The Squats do have some serious weaknesses these days but the Tau are not equipped to exploit them, which is why they will struggle to deal with the Stunties.  The Tau need to be played like, well....Tau....every unit is precious and must not be sacrificed lightly.  Each has a smack-load of firepower but is terribly expensive.  Fire on the Fly can be very powerful if used to its' full potential and can be a great equaliser on the assault.  

1 & 2. Deflector Fields are similar to Holofields...some games they are invulnerable, and sometimes they just don't work.  Your best bet is to minimise the number of times you need to make that saving throw. Treat the Support Craft like an Eldar titan, stay way back, use your huge range and massive damage (100cm -5TSM and Pen +3 !!!) to kill off big things, and avoid really dangerous threats....hide if you must.

3. My opponent sometimes uses Markerlights with 1 shot missiles quite effectively.  Markerlights have a 50cm range and you need to be within 25 to beat Stealth so I'm not sure I agree here.  It is a potentially overpowering ability so not being able to fire on the fly doesn't seem a big tradeoff.  It also seems more realistic.

4. Are you looking at the same list?  Moray/Manta - Railcannons - 100cm 4+ -5 Pen +3.  Tracers 100cm 4+ -4 Pen +1.  Swordfish Railcannons as above but "only" -4TSM.  Scorpionfish with 4 Tracer missiles or 6 seekers also at 100cms.  Hammerhead Mk2, Stingray, Broadside.....

5. Did you remember to infiltrate the Kroot?  Infiltrate + 1st turn Charge sees you halfway across the board.  Didn't think  a transport was needed or realistic.

As for Squats:

1. Yup, Overlords are very strong.  I hope you are using the alternate flyer rules 'cause under the original NE5 ones they are unstoppable!  Tau have lots of 100cm range stuff that can knock an Overlord out of the air.

2. I always thought the Guild Bikers really didn't fit the Squat design, but they have always been there.  Their skimmers are dross though....not a good shooter and not tough enough to be a tank.  Praetorians have a huge vulnerability, but alas the Tau aren't the army to exploit it.  

Some armies will just struggle against others....here's an interesting game of rock/paper/scissors.....Squat beats Tau, Tyranid beats Squat, Tau beat Tyranid.




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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:41 am 
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With the amended flyer rules, Overlords are easy targets, off course at high altitude they are harder to kill with the +25cm range bonus but they can be destroyed even by weapons with no TSM. Tau army has some interesting skimmer units that can perform pop-up attacks and fire at 100cm. If the squat player tries to do Pop-Up attacks with its Overlords, you can rip them with AA shots.


Squat biker guilds are fast and strong in CC, their trikes are just like wheeled Land Speeders and at 600 points for a company, this is - according to me - the best squat units in the army. Moreover, each detachment is leaded by a "free" good guildmaster...

Maybe it could be possible to re-evaluate to guild biker cost to:

- biker detachment: 250 points (4VP)
- trikes detachment: 250 points (4VP)
- guild biker company: 700 points (10VP)

I'm a fanatic squat player but I agree that Guild biker company is really strong and for 600 points, these company is just too cheap!

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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:35 am 
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To avoid abuse, I'd be keen to see the Guild Biker company made unique or even limit it to only one per army regardless of size, rather than play around with the costs of a classic unit.  Having said that, the old Wind Rider Host got neutered so I guess anything is possible  :oh:

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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:58 am 
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Don't make it a unique card Zap...Trikes and bikes are common minis that you can easily be find and moreover there's not so many company cards on squat list.

Some people could also complain about an IG army consisting of 2 Rough riders companys (600 points for 32 stands 20cm/+3 CAF), a land speeder company and an imperial bike company...

I think just by adjusting the guild biker company, squat player would take care of it, 10VP for an assaulting company, just assault with caution ;)




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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:42 am 
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Ah well, there goes another handy expendable unit  :sigh:

How come it's ok to have cruddy units that everyone avoids,(Manticores, Whirlwinds, Warp Hunters, to name a few that have been discussed before) but it's not ok to have a few golden egg units that everyone takes? Ideally wouldn't it be better to fix the crud and keep the good stuff as is?..

If making the Squat Biker Company unique is impractical why not restrict it by only allowing one to be taken for every (something?) odd points spent on the army or if certain units are included. E.g.: You can buy one company of bikers for every company of (such and such?) taken. Please! don't increase the costs.  :_(

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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:20 pm 
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"Unique" in NetEpic means "maximum 1 per 3000 points" (Core Rules, P7).  That would be my favourite option.  I wouldn't like to mess around with points.  

I only ever take 1 Guild Bikers because they are so good, so it wouldn't worry me.  :vD   Of course, it means we don't have anything to fix either.  I have admittedly taken 2 Rough Rider companies before,(and that is pretty harsh  :whistle: ), but I think the Guild Bikers are a lot better than the Roughies!

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 Post subject: Total overrun!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:02 pm 
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As Johan says the battlefield was really in his favour. Still things didnt really go as I thought anyways. The close combat that was fought didnt go well for Johans Tau. The Tau themself sucked bigtime in CC and his skimmers rolled as sucky as ever. One of his deepstriking flyers were shot down by AA so his remaining Kroot in the front line were quite outnumbered. His flyers moved in to finish off my Goliaths but we discovered - Flyers dont shoot in FF So the goliaths could do some damage anyways. The Colossus were in a lower place than most of the targets that could have been seen (the few that wasnt in the forest) so they didnt fire much as all. It was the same with a landtrain with 7 cars. It couldnt fire at anything at all. As far as I remember it was mainly just one of the two Colossus shooting his battlecannos at the Manta and it went down in flames. I also had a tunneling landtrain with a forward observer. Kinda neat. ;)

It was a strange battle, one of the strangest I ever fought. It was like the Tau had a really weak back that if broken they just go down like that Manta... Squats on the other hand may have the strongest backs of any army..

8000 Points was a bad choice. Since we play soo seldom we tend to want to field our armies so to speak. *sigh*
We both thought after the battle that about 3000 would have made the battle more interesting instead of beeing a shooting fest. More possibilities to make some fancy moves...
I do agree that the bike card is amazingly good but many armies have wonderful cards. I do not know if this should be "fixed" in any way.

We are NOT using the alternate flyer rules. Something to look into for the next fight.

I will try to post a couple of pictures of Johans amazing scenery. It was not 100% finished but it is beautiful.

Next time I will go for another army. I think Johan is abit tired of getting a bloody nose from the stunties.

/P-man




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