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OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
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Author:  OzTenaka [ Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
Lots here :)


Glamour of Slaanesh is very poorly handled.

First of all it is not described anyway as to what it does in any formal sense.

Slaanesh Titans state that they have Glamour and a -1 to be Hit and a 4+ Psy save because of it.

Altar of Slaanesh list Glamour on the stats table (pg 44) but not in its description on pg 13. Lists it on Pg 6 as having Hard to hit because it is a demon engine of Slaanesh.

Slaanesh Knights are the opposite - List Glamour in their description on pg 13 ( but only mentions it as giving Hard to Hit- the 4+ Psy save is mentioned on a sperate line before it mentions Glamour) but does not list it as Glamour on Stats table but lists Hard to hit and the psychic save as seperate abilities.

So what exactly does Glamour do?
This then needs to be listed under the Slaanesh Entry and then Glamour listed as the ability in both description and on Stats table.

Atm very confusing as to what exactly it does and can't tell from stats table and /or description who exactly has it.

Black Legion

The Obliterators are not listed in the description as being their special unit (pg 17)

Dreadclaw Assault Shuttle

Assault spelt wrong on pg 22

Should it also be included on Chaos Marine list not just Standard Chaos list if it is replacement for Thunderhawk.

Daemon Princes

adding "That didn't hurt" to their abilities on pg 5

Sample Army lists pg 7 Change "Choad" to "Chaos" in Black legion list

Change "Thunderhawk" for "Dreadclaw assault shuttle" in same list.


Chaos Marine Veterans

Points cost has to be wrong. Same cost as Normal chaos marines but has 1 better morale and the infiltrate special ability.

Nightlords

Flavour text says they are "masters if stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently" - they do not have any extra access to infiltrating units - they get cheap Landspeeders and cheap fear causing assault marines.
The rest of the flavour text would support the additional fear option.

Should they have infiltrating units or perhaps more fear related effects?

These guys also get a +2vp bonus for wiping out enemy units with no drawback????????????

To put this in perspective Tyranids get awarded extra VPS for a unit for wiping them out equal to the VPs for breaking them (so effectively double) but get no VPs for objectives.

The Iron Hands marine army gets +1 VPs for wiping out enemy units but it says "To balance this out, some of the Iron Hands units give 150% of normal Victory Points to the enemy."

Nightlords need a drawback to balance their free VPs either extra VPs in return or an in game factor that may limit thier tactics on occasions (like "Nightlords units must charge broken units within their charge range" or whatever else we can come up with


Raptor Marines
Way to expensive at 250pts for 5

Assault marines are 250 for 6 with 3 rhinos and a 5+ armour save instead of a 6+ for the raptors

Raptors should be 200 pts at the most - may be slightly under at 150 but seem slightly too high still at 200

Warlord Titan Special card needs adding to standard chaos list

Slannesh Magi should be HQ units

Plague Marines

Blank Stat line - should it be Chaos Marine or Tac Marine based Stats with the improved armour save?

This applies to a lot of the non imperial army lists but how you buy units for codex armies needs to be better explained.

As I have posted in another thread the rules for buying units from separate Army lists are described quite clearly in the main rulebook.

With a literal reading of that it makes chaos codex armies in particular particular limited in their choices of support cards for codex companies.

IE Under a Blood thirster Demon I could only take Khorne related support cards (Engines, lesser demons) but not beastmen, Trolls, Chaos marines or similar.

Speaking to a couple of people they were of the understanding that codex armies could take support cards from the standard list under codex list company cards. Is this the case?

Think this is it for the moment.

P.S All chaos units are too expensive  :D or I could be a touch biased
Author:  OzTenaka [ Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
Additional clarification rqd

Contagion Engines of Nurgle

In every End Phase, place a 6 cm barrage template over each plague counter and roll a d6 for every model touched. On a 4+ it must make an Armor Save to avoid destruction (models without armor save on 6+). Remove the original plague counters and replace these secondary casualties with new plague counters. Next End Phase, follow the same procedure.


Do all the old plague counters go away or only the ones that spawned new plague counters
Author:  primarch [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:03 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues

(OzTenaka @ Mar. 24 2007,20:46)
QUOTE
Lots here :)


Glamour of Slaanesh is very poorly handled.

First of all it is not described anyway as to what it does in any formal sense.

Slaanesh Titans state that they have Glamour and a -1 to be Hit and a 4+ Psy save because of it.

Altar of Slaanesh list Glamour on the stats table (pg 44) but not in its description on pg 13. Lists it on Pg 6 as having Hard to hit because it is a demon engine of Slaanesh.

Slaanesh Knights are the opposite - List Glamour in their description on pg 13 ( but only mentions it as giving Hard to Hit- the 4+ Psy save is mentioned on a sperate line before it mentions Glamour) but does not list it as Glamour on Stats table but lists Hard to hit and the psychic save as seperate abilities.

So what exactly does Glamour do?
This then needs to be listed under the Slaanesh Entry and then Glamour listed as the ability in both description and on Stats table.

Atm very confusing as to what exactly it does and can't tell from stats table and /or description who exactly has it.

Black Legion

The Obliterators are not listed in the description as being their special unit (pg 17)

Dreadclaw Assault Shuttle

Assault spelt wrong on pg 22




Daemon Princes

adding "That didn't hurt" to their abilities on pg 5

Sample Army lists pg 7 Change "Choad" to "Chaos" in Black legion list

Change "Thunderhawk" for "Dreadclaw assault shuttle" in same list.


Chaos Marine Veterans

Points cost has to be wrong. Same cost as Normal chaos marines but has 1 better morale and the infiltrate special ability.

Nightlords

Flavour text says they are "masters if stealth, able to infiltrate a position quickly and silently" - they do not have any extra access to infiltrating units - they get cheap Landspeeders and cheap fear causing assault marines.
The rest of the flavour text would support the additional fear option.

Should they have infiltrating units or perhaps more fear related effects?

These guys also get a +2vp bonus for wiping out enemy units with no drawback????????????

To put this in perspective Tyranids get awarded extra VPS for a unit for wiping them out equal to the VPs for breaking them (so effectively double) but get no VPs for objectives.

The Iron Hands marine army gets +1 VPs for wiping out enemy units but it says "To balance this out, some of the Iron Hands units give 150% of normal Victory Points to the enemy."

Nightlords need a drawback to balance their free VPs either extra VPs in return or an in game factor that may limit thier tactics on occasions (like "Nightlords units must charge broken units within their charge range" or whatever else we can come up with


Raptor Marines
Way to expensive at 250pts for 5

Assault marines are 250 for 6 with 3 rhinos and a 5+ armour save instead of a 6+ for the raptors

Raptors should be 200 pts at the most - may be slightly under at 150 but seem slightly too high still at 200

Warlord Titan Special card needs adding to standard chaos list

Slannesh Magi should be HQ units

Plague Marines

Blank Stat line - should it be Chaos Marine or Tac Marine based Stats with the improved armour save?

This applies to a lot of the non imperial army lists but how you buy units for codex armies needs to be better explained.

As I have posted in another thread the rules for buying units from separate Army lists are described quite clearly in the main rulebook.

With a literal reading of that it makes chaos codex armies in particular particular limited in their choices of support cards for codex companies.

IE Under a Blood thirster Demon I could only take Khorne related support cards (Engines, lesser demons) but not beastmen, Trolls, Chaos marines or similar.

Speaking to a couple of people they were of the understanding that codex armies could take support cards from the standard list under codex list company cards. Is this the case?

Think this is it for the moment.

P.S All chaos units are too expensive  :D or I could be a touch biased

Hi!

As for the glamour of slaanesh, it conveys a psy-save of 4+ and and a hard to hit penalty on any unit firing at it of -1.

All unique slaaneshi units: titans, knights, dreadnoguhts should have it.

"Should it also be included on Chaos Marine list not just Standard Chaos list if it is replacement for Thunderhawk."

I would guess so, yes.

Increase veteran marine cost by 50 points.

Nightlords: why not give them the infiltrate and fear abilities and eliminate the +2 VP thing?

Decrease raptor cost to 175.

Plague marine use chaos marine stat with increased armor save by +1.

"IE Under a Blood thirster Demon I could only take Khorne related support cards (Engines, lesser demons) but not beastmen, Trolls, Chaos marines or similar."

They should be able to take those units too.

"Speaking to a couple of people they were of the understanding that codex armies could take support cards from the standard list under codex list company cards. Is this the case?"

I believe that is so. Does it make ense to you this way?

Chaos tends to be pricey because of the inherent chaos powers you get (i.e chaos cards), so they should be slightly more expensive.

I'm okay with all other corrections, omissions.typos.

Primarch
Author:  primarch [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues

(OzTenaka @ Mar. 24 2007,21:43)
QUOTE
Additional clarification rqd

Contagion Engines of Nurgle

In every End Phase, place a 6 cm barrage template over each plague counter and roll a d6 for every model touched. On a 4+ it must make an Armor Save to avoid destruction (models without armor save on 6+). Remove the original plague counters and replace these secondary casualties with new plague counters. Next End Phase, follow the same procedure.


Do all the old plague counters go away or only the ones that spawned new plague counters

Hi!

Only the ones that spawned new counters.

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
In the standard C-Marine list the Havoks are way overcosted IMO. ?Havoks have exactly the same stats as Devestators. ?A Chaos Marine Havok Co. has 15 standards of Havoks + one Chaos Champion, morale of 2, break of 8, cost of 1000 points. ?A detachment of 5 Havoks costs 350 points.

A Marine Devestator Co. has 18 stands of Devestators, 9 Rhinos, plus HQ stand and Rhino, morale of 2, break of 15, cost of 1000 points. ?A detachment of 6 Devestators + 3 Rhinos costs 350 points.

Given the standard list Chaos Marines don't get any Chaos Reward cards, there is no way such an inbalance can be justified surely? ?I would think the Havok detachment should be 300 tops (you get 5 Thunderers for that) and probably only 250. ?Company card should be 750-800. ?

Alternatively, make the detachments 6 strong and give 'em Rhinos  :;):
Author:  OzTenaka [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
As I have posted in another thread the rules for buying units from separate Army lists are described quite clearly in the main rulebook.

With a literal reading of that it makes chaos codex armies in particular particular limited in their choices of support cards for codex companies.


WHat I want to add/change the wording for buying Codex/Standards armies  to is something as follows

"A codex army can purchase support cards from the standard list as if they are part of the codex list"

This would also apply to Eldar list etc. I think this better reflects the intent of the codex armies

Re Havoks

I would think the points cost reduction would be the best option as one of the unwritten rules of the chaos lists has always been that Rhinos MUST ALWAYS be bought as support cards  :p

so 5 Havok stands = 300pts Company = 800 or lower still?


Re Nightlords

One of my options I had considered was replace one of the Chaos Marine detachments with CM Vets for free (that gets a unit infiltrate) and perhaps another with thier Raptor Variant that comes with Fear.

so giving a Nightlords Marine Company
1 Chaos Champion Stand
1 Chaos Marine Veteran Detachment
1 Chaos Marine Detachment
1 Fury Detachment

still costs 600 and has same Break point but gives them that flavour.

The other option is to give the Fury units Infiltrate on top of the Fear and raise their cost to 200 for 5 and then replace all the detachments in the unit with Fury detachments (same cost etc)

P.S All chaos units are too expensive  :D or I could be a touch biased

This was a shallow attempt at humour as I am technically a primary chaos player who hates getting whooped by cheatin' Weirdboy toting Orks and girly men Eldar (sry Zap  :D ). It didn't seem to come across that way though

However I will think that Cannons of Khorne are just plain useless until my Dying day.  :laugh:
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
I had a winkin' smiley after the "give 'em Rhinos" suggestion.  I think 300 for the detachment is probably best, and 800 for the Havok Company.  Far from cheap, but you might consider buying it at 800.

I'm uncertain about the standard list support cards for the Codex list companies.  I'd be happy to see the T-Sons, Death Guard, World Eater and Emp. Kiddies centuries being able to buy CSM support cards, but not so sure about totally opening it up.  I think the intent was clearly to keep 3 very different flavoured types of army.  I think I'd vote no.

I don't think a direct comparison to the Eldar list works either.  I don't think Exodite or Knight lists should be able to buy any support from the standard list (though it would help fill some holes in those two lists).  Certainly shouldn't apply to the Dark Eldar :)

I like the mixed company option for Night Lords.....nicely captures the fluff and doesn't need anything new.  I assume the thought is to drop the problematic +2VP thingy at the same time.
Author:  OzTenaka [ Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:22 pm ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
How about this for just the Chaos list purchasing option.

"Chaos Powers Codex Armies can purchase Infantry support cards from the Standard Chaos List as if they were part of the Codex List. In addition If a Chaos Powers Marine Legion Company card is purchased (World eaters, Thousands sons etc) then support cards from the Standard Chaos Marine list can be purchased for them only."


I should have explained myself better

Eldar would be

"Craftworld Codex Eldar Armies can purchase Standard Eldar list support cards as if they were part of the Codex list"
Author:  primarch [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:39 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues

(zap123 @ Mar. 25 2007,23:45)
QUOTE
In the standard C-Marine list the Havoks are way overcosted IMO.  Havoks have exactly the same stats as Devestators.  A Chaos Marine Havok Co. has 15 standards of Havoks + one Chaos Champion, morale of 2, break of 8, cost of 1000 points.  A detachment of 5 Havoks costs 350 points.

A Marine Devestator Co. has 18 stands of Devestators, 9 Rhinos, plus HQ stand and Rhino, morale of 2, break of 15, cost of 1000 points.  A detachment of 6 Devestators + 3 Rhinos costs 350 points.

Given the standard list Chaos Marines don't get any Chaos Reward cards, there is no way such an inbalance can be justified surely?  I would think the Havok detachment should be 300 tops (you get 5 Thunderers for that) and probably only 250.  Company card should be 750-800.  

Alternatively, make the detachments 6 strong and give 'em Rhinos  :;):

Hi!

I agree with either of your recommended changes for this unit.

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:44 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
That version of the support card rule seems ok. ?However, looking at it I don't really see the big deal. ?The Major Power list probably has better infantry choices anyway...there's not much in the way of infantry detachments in the standard list I'd take instead of the powers stuff. ?If I want Trolls or Minis I'd take a standard list Company.

Just noticed 2 more:

Engineers/Combat Engineers - Mixed up. ?There is a description for Combat Engineers, but only Engineers listed in cards/stats tables. ?Strange text with no real meaning in the description for Combat Engineers. ?Suggestion: ?Change description bit (p19) to Engineers, and move from Special Units to Infantry section. ?For Engineer stats (p 43), remove "special" and replace with "Combat Engineer".

Iron Warriors - have both the Vindicator and Warhound Titan listed as special units (p18), but no mention of them in the Legion list (p41).
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:45 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
After further thought, I really like the approach taken with the Nightlords. ?I've sometimes thought it would be good if the CSM Legions had a selection of their own unique Company cards. ?

- Nightlords could keep the standard "3 detachments of marines" one, and the new one can be a Nightlord Battle Century, and they could get third company card full of Landspeeder detachments. ?

- Alpha legion keeps the standard Century, and get an Infiltration Century with a detachment of CSMs, one of Cultist Infiltrators, and one of Engineers.

- Black Legion - new Century with 2 dets of CSMs and one of Obliterators.

- Iron Warriors get the standard century, plus a Seige Century with Bombards, Basks, Iron Dreadnoughts led by a Warsmith; and a Vindicator Company.

- Word Bearers.....hmm, no great idea here. ?Copy of the Death Company concept maybe??

(though getting way beyond Errata here)
Author:  primarch [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:50 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
Hi!

A lot of those chaos chapters have little playtesting, so any ideas or changes should/can be made now, so fire away with them, since this is the time to tackle them.

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
I've given the Iron Warriors a few runs lately.  They are probably the most different after the NightLords (with the +2VP and quite strong Reward card) and they still seem balanced and well costed.  Their Chaos reward is fairly tame, and the 6+ regen is so infrequent that you can't rely on it, and doesn't make much difference overall.  The army has nothing you couldn't get by taking a powers Century, some CSM stuff and Imperial allies really.  It would be neat if they had some more Legion specific company cards, but it's not a big thing.

We did have one question on their regen ability.  If you build an Iron Warriors army, and you take a Terminator Company from the Chaos Marine list, would the Terminators get the Regen ability?  Easy to argue either way, but I didn't know what the original intent was.
Author:  Mojarn Piett [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues

(zap123 @ Mar. 27 2007,04:45)
QUOTE
After further thought, I really like the approach taken with the Nightlords.  I've sometimes thought it would be good if the CSM Legions had a selection of their own unique Company cards.


Yee-haa! Someone who agrees with me!  :p


- Nightlords could keep the standard "3 detachments of marines" one, and the new one can be a Nightlord Battle Century, and they could get third company card full of Landspeeder detachments.  


Hm. The battle century might be better suited to Black Legion. How about some kind of Raptor unit? The landspeeder company is  very powerful. I think it should be at least a special card, perhaps even unique special card (i.e. only one could be fielded).


- Alpha legion keeps the standard Century, and get an Infiltration Century with a detachment of CSMs, one of Cultist Infiltrators, and one of Engineers.


You've read either my thoughts or my posts at the Epic Armageddon HQ.  :;):


- Black Legion - new Century with 2 dets of CSMs and one of Obliterators.


See above.


- Iron Warriors get the standard century, plus a Seige Century with Bombards, Basks, Iron Dreadnoughts led by a Warsmith; and a Vindicator Company.


I wouldn't give Iron Warriors Bombards. Vindicator company is OK, though. Siege Dreadnought formation would be cool.


- Word Bearers.....hmm, no great idea here.  Copy of the Death Company concept maybe??


Some kind of lightly armed cultist formation. Basically rabble but insanely fanatic with 75% break point instead of the normal 50%. Or a cultist formation with normal break point but very few VP to represent their status as glorious sacrifices.

Increased access to (lesser) daemons as well as the Word Bearers are in good standing with all of the ruinous powers.
Author:  OzTenaka [ Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  OMG CHAOS LIST errata/Rules issues
all good ideas it will add a lot more flavour to those armies.

Chaos book needs a lot of work :)
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