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Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
OzTenaka
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 12:45 am 
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This is a Battle report form the Battle I had with Juffo-Wup. Unfortunately no Photos

4000pt Battle

Army Lists
Tyranids:
Dominatrix
2 x Hive Queens
Tyranid Warrior Brood
2x Razorfex Detachments
2x Haruspex Detachments
2x Exocrine
2x Trygon
Hierophant Bio-Titan
Genestealers (started in Titan)
Hormagaunts
Gargoyles
Termagants in spores
Lictors

Tau:
Battlesuit Cadre
Mechanised Cadre
2 Stealth Suit Detachments
Manta
2 Skyray Detachments
2 Scorpionfish
Barracuda

Setup:

Due to a forest on the 'Nids right flank they set up heavily in the Centre around the Bio-Titan and Dominatrix.

The Warriors, Gargoyles, one unit of Exocrines, Razorfexes and Haruspexes were deployed on the left flank. The Lictors infiltrated to occupy a building te Yau deemed important in the Centre.

The Tau set up a Stealth suit detachment centre. Scorpion fish , FireWarrior, skyrayand Stealth Detachment on their right and 2 Firewarriors, Scorpionfish, Barracudas and skyrays on the left.

Turn 1

The 'Nids upon seeing the Tau seized the intiative and surged forward   :alien:  . Hormagaunts ran onto an important hill.
The Gargoyles and Tyranid Warriors moved to occupy another important building on their left.

The Manta Landed dead on Target in the middle of the field.

As the Tyranid horde surged towards it Battlesuits poured from it raining fire.
In response the Bio Titan surged forward towards the Manta at the last moment realising the Manta was out of reach it veered into a detachment of Battle suits and disgorged the Genestealers


The Tau Barracudas swept forward past the Tyranid line and shot the exocrines which had been caught up in the tyranid surge and charged. The Stealth suits also advanced as well as one detachment of fire warriors on the tyranids right.

Fire now poured from the Tau line. Razorfexes, Trygons, Lictors, Exocrines and the Bio Titan took the brunt of this firing. This tyranid brood was made with superb armour however and only 3 Lictors, 2 Exocrines, 2 Razorfexes (one regen'ed), 1 Trygon died and the Bio titan after surviving an abdomen hit had 3 wounds (one was regen'ed).

In response the Dominatrix managed to knock out one of the Ion Cannon Batteries on the Manta.

Close combat saw all but one of the stealers shred a battlesuit. One of the stealers did succumb to a Battle suit.

VP 26-0 to the Tau

Turn 2
The Tau seeing the danger presented by the 'nids reacted swiftly and hunkered down.

It was then they noticed the falling spores and proceeded to rain fire upon them. At this point the Tau's accuracy deserted them briefly and the obssessed Tau commander kept ordering more and more firepower directed at them . 4 spores made it to ground (one landing on and crushing a battle suit) and 2 opened releasing the termagants.

The Hormagaunts found themselves Fleet of Claw and charged a Fire warrior detachment guarding an objective to the rear. This proved a rush of Blood as the Fire warriors gunned them all down before they could enage.

The Battlesuits continue to Jump around firing at any 'nids they could see.

The Manta poured firepower into the dominatrix, Bio Titan (which and moved to engage anothe Battlesuit) and other units. The Scorpionfish followed suit.

As the barracudas swept across the rear of the Tyranid lines the remaining exocrines brought down one.

The remaining Trygon swung to the left flank and ran through a Fire warrior detachment frying all but one with its electric field. This remaing one was crushed underneath the creatures imposing bulk.

The Dominatrix and one of the Hive Queens fired at the Manta and scored a hit on the bridge which sent its fire control offline.


The BioTitan ended the turn with 6 wounds after only regenerating one.

The Damage control teams in the Manta failed to bring the fire control systems online.

The Battle suit Cadre had suffered large casualties as had one of the stealth detachments.

VP 26-12 ( The Tau had lost control of an objective)

Turn 3

The Tyranids pressed on disregarding the punishment they were taking as they sensed the Tau were vulnerable.

Across the line 'Nids engaged the Tau up close.

The Trygon having moved out of the comfort of thr Hive mind looked for something else to kill and headed towards the Fire warrior detachment that had slaughtered the Hormagaunts. They seeing the danger leapt into their Devilfish and swept past it to regain control of the Hill. A Hive Queen charged into their midst.

The Tau tried to gun down the closing Tyranids with moderate success. The Tau that were able poured fire into the staggering Bio Titan. It collapsed in a pool of blood and ichor with a massive 19 wounds by the end of the turn.

The Dominatrix killed a fire warrior on the Hill but the rest of its shots bounced harmlessly from the Manta.

The Trygon also managed to survive withering fire from the Tau

The close combat that had erupted across the battlefield had not gone well for the Tau and saw their numbers drastically reduced.

However the Exocrines had had a surge of adrenaline and swept around a bulding to shoot at the Manta and they penetrated the bridge causing massive damaged and the Manta plunged to the ground. The crew bravely tried to steer the stricken vehicle into some nearby Razorefexes but this was to no avail as they leapt out of the way.

The Barracudas tried to bring down the Hive QUeen on the hill after it had torn though some Fire warriors. They did succeed it in forcing it to the ground but its healing. powers saw it get back up again.

The Bio Titan did not recover form the huge rents in its shell ( Only about 6 ot hte wounds got regen'ed)

VPs 23 (the Tau were down to one objective) - 39

The Tau decided that the battle was lost and using the Darkness that had descended fled from the Tyranid menace.

The Tau had left at this point 3 Stealth Suits across the 2 Detachments, All the Skyrays, both Scorpionfish, 2 Barracudas and a handful of Firewarriors and Battlesuits.

The Tyranids had the Dom, both Hive Queens, 5 Razorfexes, 4 Haruspexes (2 each detachment), 1 Trygon, 3 Tyr Warriors, 3 Gargoyles, 1 Termagant, 3 Exocrines and 2 Lictors.

The Tau firepower was unlucky to not take down many more Tyranids on the First turn. The number of 5+ armour saves I made was obscene considering the Tau player barely missed.

Battle suits are great but fragile. The Manta is essential for the Tau and with a bit more luck it would have dominated the centre. I'm sure Juffo-Wup my opponent will have his own views though  :p
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zap123
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:03 am 
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Nice, was wondering how a CC Horde would go against the menace of the Tau firepower.  Sounds like the balance is preeety close too.  Very happy to see a Bio Titan finally knocked over and that the accursed Manta is now actually possible to shoot down. :)

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 8:49 am 
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The battle was much closer than it should have been.  I saw FAR more 5s and 6s rolled for saves than I would have thought possible.  Yes, my shooting was good but that doesn't help when none of it gets through.  Still, that's the way it goes sometimes.....  :)

The Tau's biggest flaw is their lack of ability to assault objectives.  Without any real CC troops, they really can't make a serious attempt to take objectives.  They must blast the enemy off them and then move up which is not always easy.

Battlesuits are awesome with their Fire-on-the-Fly ability but as Oz said, they suffer in CC against anything better than a Space Marine.  The Mk2 Suits are silly.  They are in no way representative of "real" 40K battlesuits and need some changes made.  The Flamer template is wrong and too good.

Bio-Titans are too tough for their cost.  Yes, they have no shields but taking them down is a chore.  They soak up far more firepower than their cost justifies.

The Tau list seems a bit more balanced now with the changes I made, it just needs the tweak with the Mk2 battlesuits.

The Fire Warriors' original points cost took into account their old Defensive Fire ability, which I have now removed.  When compared to IG Tactical stands and SM Tactical stands, they are more than twice as expensive as IG Tac stands and just as effective (IG have better CAF and worse to-hit) and just as expensive as SM Tac stands which have better CAF, worse to-hit, a Save and much better Morale.  The cost of Fire Warriors needs to come down, as regular Pathfinders probably should (as they also had Defensive Fire).




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zap123
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:33 pm 
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You dont have much manouvre room in the costs for the Firewarriors and Pathfinders though.  I think 125 might be ok for a Firewarrior detachment, could be messy, but 100 is certainly too cheap.  Similarly, I dont think you could make the Pathfinders 150.

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:45 am 
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Well, lets look at the costs of four of the standard infantry.

IG Tac stands are 20pts each.  Eldar Guardians are 25pts each.  Ork Boyz are 25pts each.  Space Marine Tac stands are 33.3pts each.

If we make Fire Warriors 100pts/detachment (4 stands/detachment), that makes them 25pts each.  This puts them on par with Guardians and Boyz.  To compare the stats:

Guardian: Move 10cm, No Save, 0CAF, 50cm rng, 5+ to-hit, 0TSM, Morale: 3
Boyz (average): Move 10cm, No Save, +1 CAF, 50cm rng, 5+ to-hit, 0TSM, Morale: 4
Fire Warriors: Move 10cm, No Save, -1 CAF, 50cm rng, 4+ to-hit, 0TSM, Morale: 3

If you make them 125pts per detachment, they cost 31.25pts each, pushing them into the realm of Space Marines and they certainly can't compete there.  25pts each looks about right to me.  Their closest companion is the Guardian so the big question is: is the -1CAF equal to the extra +1 to-hit?

Markerlights could be argued into the equation but my experience with Markerlights so far is that they have very little impact on the game at all.  Remember that a Markerlight only affects the model that is marked, not the whole detachment so a squad of Fire Warriors won't get much out of a Markerlight.

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OzTenaka
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:48 am 
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The other idea that is been floating around is that I think the Tau need is to use their mobility and firepower to seize and then hold objectives.

Tau cannot assault defended positions (My Gran with a soft pillow could lay the smack down on a squad of Fire warriors  :D ) so they need to take and hold them.

It may mean that the basic Tau strategy is to grab objectives on the first turn and then hunker down and try to gun down the enemy before thier CC overwhelms them.

This may need a return to some sort of defensive ability to make this viable as I don't think it would be against a heavy CC and fast army like the bugs.

I have no idea how a Fire warrior is supposed to stack up against a Marine or IG guy in 40k but that should be a rough basis for comparison as well.
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zap123
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:38 am 
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One of the unfortunate byproducts of the new 4 man detachments is variations in the points become harder.  Given the Cadre is now 4x4 man detachments, perhaps you could make the detachments 8 stands for 225.

OzT is right too, they need to be played like Guardians....drop them onto the objective first turn and hunker down.  I'd rate the 4+ to hit more valuable than the one point lower CAF, particularly as the former will avoid the later most of the time (assuming they are hunkering on FF).  I would have thought the new Battlesuit and Recon Cadres were the only real "grab back a defended objective" options.  The Eldar sure don't use Guardians for it.

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:43 am 
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(zap123 @ Jun. 05 2007,05:38)
QUOTE
One of the unfortunate byproducts of the new 4 man detachments is variations in the points become harder. ?Given the Cadre is now 4x4 man detachments, perhaps you could make the detachments 8 stands for 225.

OzT is right too, they need to be played like Guardians....drop them onto the objective first turn and hunker down. ?I'd rate the 4+ to hit more valuable than the one point lower CAF, particularly as the former will avoid the later most of the time (assuming they are hunkering on FF). ?I would have thought the new Battlesuit and Recon Cadres were the only real "grab back a defended objective" options. ?The Eldar sure don't use Guardians for it.

8-stand detachments isn't within the Tau philosophy. ?They go for small and flexible units. ?So I'm not keen on that idea.

There are two options to make this fair as far as I can see:

1) Keep them as 4-stand detachments at 100pts/detachment but drop their CAF to -2 (not unreasonable, Fire Warriors and Pathfinders are terrible in 40K CC, able to be beaten regularly by IG Tac Guardsmen). ?I do agree that the extra +1 to hit is more valuable than a -1 CAF.

2) Move them back up to 6-stand detachments for 175pts/detachment (making them 29.17pts/stand) and make Devilfish 3-vehicle squadrons. ?This puts the Devilfish out-of-whack with other Tau vehicle Squadrons but would be needed to make them compatible with Fire Warrior detachments).

My preference is for option 1.

Oh and as for the objective thing, I agree and its what I tried to do.  I was just a little timid about it as I had HARUSPEXES heading for the objectives!  The Problem for the Tau is not that they can't use Fire Warriors to take back objectives in Assault, its that they don't have anything else to do it with aside from Kroot.  With Kroot numbers limited, this can make it tough.  I'm not complaining, this is the challange of playing Tau (which i am willing to try and meet) but I wanted to make the point.




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zap123
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:56 am 
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Option 1 sounds ok.

I think for taking back objectives in an assault the Crisis Suits and particularly the BattleSuit Cadre could be scary good.....moving up while also shooting things off the objective before they get to react seems like it would be quite effective, particularly with their firepower.  The Recon Cadre is probably more a snatch and grab option in retrospect.

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 7:15 am 
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(zap123 @ Jun. 05 2007,06:56)
QUOTE
Option 1 sounds ok.

I think for taking back objectives in an assault the Crisis Suits and particularly the BattleSuit Cadre could be scary good.....moving up while also shooting things off the objective before they get to react seems like it would be quite effective, particularly with their firepower. ?The Recon Cadre is probably more a snatch and grab option in retrospect.

Good point, and one I didn't take full advantage of.

I've altered the Battlesuits to make a bit more sense (that flamer template was silly and the Barrage template was clunky with the FOTF ability).  Both variants are more balanced towards each other and cost the same (250pts/detachment; 900pts for the Cadre), making the Battlesuit Cadre a little more flexible and a little more expensive:

Their weapon stats are:
Mk1 Suit
Burst Cannons, 35cm, 3 Dice, 4+, 0TSM
Missile Pods, 50cm, 2 Dice, 4+, -1TSM

Mk2 Suit
Plasma Rifle, 50cm, 1 Dice, 3+, -2TSM
Flamer*, 20cm, 2 Dice, 3+, 0TSM, Ignores Cover

Simpler, effective and removes the need for more than 1 type of Crisis Suit Card (like the Hammerheads).

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zap123
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:33 am 
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Dat's hooge firepower.....but the Battle Suits should be signature Tau units.  Looks good....scary, but good.

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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: Battle Report Tyranids vs 5.1 Tau
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:08 am 
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Its actually a little less firepower than before.  The two suits were a short-range, anti-infantry suit with Burst Cannons and Flamers (that used the large flamer template), and an anti-armour suit with Missile Pods and Plasma Rifles.

Now both suits have an anti-armour option and an anti-infantry option.  I cut back on the Burst cannon shots (from 4 to 3 per stand).  Mk1 Suits have lots of firepower that hits 50% of the time, Mk2 suits have less firepower but it hits more reliably and one ignores cover.  I think 250pts for 4 is about right, especially with the Quickdraw and Fire-on-the-Fly abilities.

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