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Holo-field and templates

 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:16 pm 
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Actually, it does explain it quite well. As I see it.

With your specific example, the one fires missiles that are targeting a specific spot (on the ground) and thus are subject to the scatter effect of the Field. The other produces an effect that erupts across the entire affected area simultaneously, and thus ignores the field. Thus yes, they do work fine within the rules as written.

Can you be more specific as to how you see the above not working, without worrying about effects to the Titan. The only relevant issue is whether things are affected by the Field or not. Bringing up after-hit effects seems like it may be an attempt to obfuscate the issue.

Yes, this means that some rather rare weapons have an easier time destroying Eldar Titans. This fits well with the fluff as well, as I recall. Eldar Titans are not intended to be able to withstand lots of damage, but are built for hit-and-run tactics. Imperial Titans are built to take lots of damage while they stand still and shoot things. Arguing that Eldar Titans should have a defense because Imperial ones do is not the right way to approach things.

I feel that I cannot adequately discuss the intent behind the rule, as if what Primarch stated is true, then the rules are written totally wrong. All that I can see is how the rules are currently worded.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:09 pm 
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You also seem to be operating under a misconception. LOS has no bearing on the discussion of Templates. None. LOS is only important when discussing Psychic effects. Note that the Holo Field does not care whether a Psychic effect is a Template or not, just whether it requires LOS. The Field also does not care if a Psychic effect is Physical or Ethereal. Please drop all references to "Physical" and "LOS" when discussing Templates as those aspects are not relevant.

What I described IS how the rules are currently written. It is not a "vision" or an opinion or a justification. It is fact.

To be able to adequately discuss the intent behind these rules, we would have to find the person(s) who actually wrote the rules and include them in the discussion. I for one have no idea of how to do that. If you do, then please do so. Otherwise, the only "intent" that can be inferred is what the actual written rules say. Yes, I read the post in the other thread where Primarch said the thing. However, what was said there does not make logical sense based on how the rules are actually written. Thus I can only conclude that what he stated was his opinion at the time, and not the prevailing opinions of the persons who actually wrote the rules.

On the other hand, if you are intending to propose that the written rules be changed to say that all Templates should scatter, then you may want to do just that. Note that such a change could not be done for Gold, as that is a bit beyond a typo fix, but could be included for Platinum. Should Platinum ever happen.

For that matter, there is nothing stopping you and your specific gaming group playing things that way, so long as you all agree to it. It would just be contrary to the rules as written.

Please also try to stay on topic. Discussing typos in other books is not relevant to this discussion. Yes, I know typos happen, but this issue is well beyond a simple typo.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:03 pm 
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I am going to bow out of this discussion. My arguments are the same but the discussion has taken a turn for the worse.

Better to keep this a friendly and respectful forum.


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Hi!

There are several very bad dynamics occurring within the rules, such as they are:

1. The revision for NEGold was over a year long.

While that means a lot of discussion, it also means things fall between the cracks.

2. I did not write this version.

Traditionally, versions 4 and older were written mostly by me. That means intent usually got transferred into RAW.

I did not write this version and I was not involved during its final editing. For those whom like net epic history, I had stepped down from leading this for a period of several years due to training/work constraints.

Sufficed to say, I have many "WTF" moments when reading the rules, but I wasn't there to "make a call".

3. I don't use this version any more.

I consistently make mistakes in rules interpretations since I no longer use NEGold. More of a hodgepodge of several rulesets (when I'm not making some new ruleset up to use).

Its become increasingly difficult to give an "official" interpretation of these rules, given my lack of use of them and the disconnect between what may have been intent and what the final people wanted to do.

In fact I increasingly depend on Magnus for this kind of things, since he has a good grasp on the mechanics and more often times than not he is correct in interpreting them "as written".

My take on this point and any other is to give an edge to the defensive aspect of a given rule. For those whom remember stock 2nd edition, eldar titans all but disappeared from the tabletop due to the extremely weak holofield rules.

The low hanging fruit was to make all templates scatter, but there are a whole host of possible exceptions.

I'd say this is "house rule" territory. Or if you want some advise, just use the first edition rules which still apply (still uses the same orders and a d6). It may be more complex, but you sidestep all these scattering issues, since the to hit number gets modified.

Perhaps a less than wanted answer, but NEGold has its share of baggage as any game that is 20 years old.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:01 am 
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I meant no animosity toward you Ronnie_Nielsen, I am just failing to see the logic in your arguments.

In any event, I poked at the lists of weapons the other day. Out of 682 weapon systems in the game, there are 121 weapons that either always use or can use a Barrage Template. There are 31 weapon systems that use non-Barrage Templates. Of those 31, 21 require that the target be within 15cm (length of a Large Teardrop template) of the firing model. This means that there are 10 non-Barrage Templates usable at range. Of those 10, 5 are found on Eldar weapons and thus would never threaten an Eldar Titan. Thus there are only 5 weapons systems out of 682 in the whole game that totally ignore the Eldar Holo Field at any reasonable range. All of these five weapons are found on Superheavy, Praetorian, or Titan models, and thus will not be commonly encountered. I find this ratio (IE, less than 1%) to be entirely acceptable with the rules as written.

Note that this is not the number of models, as that would be higher, but the number of discrete set of name, stats, & SA that make up a weapon system. For example, "Point Defense" is found on lots and lots of models, but only counts as one "Weapon System".

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:42 am 
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Interesting statistic MagnusIlluminus, it gives food for thought.

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