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Holo-field and templates

 Post subject: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:06 am 
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Hi

The eldar holo-fields rules gives some special conditions for its operation. The text says:

This save is ineffective against template weapons, as well as psychic
attacks that do not require line of sight. However, any barrage template that
covers the unit will always scatter regardless of whether it is direct fire or
not.


Q1: Do all template weapons scatter on the holo-field?

I think no, because that would make all template weapons shoot barrage templates.

Q2: What exactly makes a weapon to cause a barrage template, barrage points?

I would think that it is consistent to say that only weapons with barrage points cause barrage templates, but I could be mistanken.

Q3: Flamers, tyranid pyro-acid spray, dominatrix energy pulse and other template weapons without barrage points ignore the holo-field?

Q4: The energy pulse is a LOS template attack, does that mean that two conditions (template weapon or psychic attacks that do not require line of sight ) are they read as logically and or logically or?


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:08 pm 
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Just to give my input (alsted and I have discussed it earlier)

Q1: No. Only certain templates (see later question)

Q2: No clue to be honest.

Q3: I think that flamers and pyro-acid spray are treated the same as they both "originate" from a model. Therefore no protection is offered from the holo field at all.

Q4: Its quite vague in the description of the holo field. All I can give as input is how I read it (and based on the basic understanding of the intent of the holofield). My understanding (which might be flawed):

For templates that are physical in nature (and requires LoS as all others already scatter) it cause the scatter due to the holofield unless the template originates from a model (e.g. flamer, pyro acid etc.).

For templates that are psychic in nature the holo field grants the fixed save if the power requires LoS (otherwise the disorienting effect has no effect).

For physical psychic powers such as energy pule there is no psychic save as it is a physical power and not an ethereal psychic power. Thus any psychic saves are irelevant. But it acts like a physical attack in all aspects and therefore I would assume it either scatters or falls under the fixed save clause (as it requires LoS).

I do not know which and really not too conserned which of the two.

Ronnie


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:34 pm 
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I find that text to be quite clear. As a square is a rectangle, but not all rectangles are squares, so it is that all Barrage Templates are Templates, but not all Templates are Barrage Templates. Yes, to be considered a "Barrage Template" the firing weapon must have a BP value, or must refer to the template that it uses as being one. Then again [checks rules] ... ah, I may be slightly wrong here.

On page 35 of the core rules, there is a chart that lists "Template Name", "Used for...", and "Description" of various templates. As far as I can tell from that chart, any weapon that uses the 6cm or 12cm (IE, the Standard or Large Barrage Template) could be considered a "Barrage Template". Any weapon that does not use those two specific templates would not be, unless specifically referred to as one in the description for the weapon.

Thus the answer to Q1 is no.

Q2 is answered above.

Q3 is yes. Any Template other than the 6cm or 12cm circle templates will ignore and be ignored by the Holo-Field. They do not scatter.

Q4 seems to be a little trickier, but really is not. As the Energy Pulse does require LOS it does not hit the second condition of the Field. However, it is still a non-Barrage Template attack, thus the save from the Holo-Field would be ignored and the template would not scatter.

In other words, read the Holo Field description as if the two conditions are separate. The Holo Field is ignored if either or both of the following are true:
* The weapon uses a Template.
* The weapon is a psychic attack that does not require LOS.

The Holo Field does not discern whether the attack is Physical or Ethereal, as neither of those is specifically mentioned in the description of the ability. All it cares about is whether it uses a Template, which type of Template (IE, Barrage or other), and whether the attack is Psychic that does not require LOS.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:29 pm 
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Seems logical. Can agree on the points, except the energy pulse :)

Its against what has previously been posted on the energy pulse (says it scatters):

http://tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/view ... 72&t=30599

As the holo field is changed from 2nd edition I do not know what the intent is. Perhaps Primarch can shed some light on the area.

It would suprise me if the intent is to leave eldar titans without any protection against those kind af attacks where all other titan shields has an effect. But I have asked the same earlier against harpoon missile which also does not have a easy to read interaction with holofield.


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 7:07 pm 
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My own conclusion follows the lines of MagnusIlluminus, but then again i don't have any holo-fields in my armies, so I may be biased.

For now I'll just follow and see if any one else has anything to add.


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:46 am 
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Based on my read of the Energy Pulse, it would have to react as I mentioned above. I have no idea why Primarch said that it would have a mandatory scatter, as it clearly is not a Barrage Template. Perhaps he can shed some light on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:14 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Based on my read of the Energy Pulse, it would have to react as I mentioned above. I have no idea why Primarch said that it would have a mandatory scatter, as it clearly is not a Barrage Template. Perhaps he can shed some light on that.


Hi!

Because the intent back in the day was that anything that was a "template" should scatter, not just barrage templates. If its not a direct fire shot (i.e no template) it should scatter.

Very favorable interpretation for the holofield, given that it was felt that otherwise the holofield wasn't good (and under stock 2nd edition rules it wasn't, easy to bypass).

That said the 2nd edition holofield is a very bad way to do the holofield. The 1st edition one was deemed too "complex", although that one was more "Accurate" fluffwise on how it should work.

A "happy medium" has yet to been done on this. I have ideas but that is beyond the scope of stock net epic.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:42 am 
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Hi

Ok, if thats the intent, then I'm not the one to say it's wrong. But the text says something else.

The text i quoted in OP was from the Eldar codex, the rulebook is rather more clear:

"These shields disrupt targeting systems and distort the
image of the titan. The effectiveness of the shield depends on the speed the
titan is moving. The shields provide a Fixed Save according to the table below.
This save does not apply to weapons that use any kind of template, but any
barrage template that is placed to cover the titan will always scatter regardless of whether the barrage is direct
or not. Holo-fields provide a 4+ Psychic
Save against powers that require

a line of sight."

Emphasis is mine.

This text is clear to me, for the energy pulse, you get a 4+ Psychic
Save and since it is a template it ignores the holo-field.

So we are at the conclusion that the intent was different but the text is some what clear in the eldar codex and very clear in the rulebook?


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:54 am 
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Energy Pulse is a noted as a "physical psychic power" (page 14 NetEpic Gold Tyranid Codex), not an Ethereal Psychic Power so Psychic Save could not be used to save from it (it can only be used for Ethereal Psychic Attack as noted in NetEpic Gold Rulebook page 37, Special Ability Psychic Save).

As Dominatrix Energy Pulse is not a Barrage Template and is not an Ethereal Psychic Attack, Holofield is ineffective against it (no deviation and no psychic save).


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:14 pm 
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Psysic save is not relevant as it is a physical power and that only protects against ethereal psysic powers. Therefore it should be the scatter part that is relevant and is also the part that Primarch has mentioned as relevenat to the energy pulse.

From Primarchs post (this and last one) I read that the intent is for all templates (not flamer and bio acid I assume) to scatter but if the template hits the model (through a good scatter roll or rolling a "hit" on the scatter dice) the holofield offers no further protection.

So in the end it means that a template needs to scatter before resolving the effect and the holo field offers no further protection against the effect. I read that as the intent of the holofield from primarchs post.

Is that correct?

Ronnie

P.S. I am very biased as I play eldar :) But I feel their shield should also offer protection against attacks other titans have protection against.


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:49 pm 
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Hi

I prefer not to discuss what i feel it should do, because if that is brought up, the eldar gets hit with a rather large nerf bat.

My conclusion is:

Rules as Written: the template does not scatter.

Rules as Intended: Maybe it should scatter, only primarch was around back then.

Actions:
Accept RaW or change RaW to match RaI.

If we go by RaW how many weapons and psychic powers is it that we are talking about here?

Best
Jens


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:09 pm 
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Imho, RaW is OK, it's not an auto-hit, Tyranid player still needs to roll a 4+ to hit model(s) under the template (or a 5+ on a Warlock Titan using Witch Sight).

Edit: After some search across various codexes (or codices ?), the only other ranged Physical Psychic Attack weapon that do not use a barrage template is the Warlord Psy Titan Psycannon weapon (large teardrop template, 100cm range).


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:00 pm 
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Yes, but ranged template weapons are not limited to that one weapon. e.g. psy cannon from eldar, template from dominatrix, template from the ordinatus-something (also flamer template), small template from orc cannon (the 3 cm one) etc. For me its a more general discussion on the holofield and not specific powers.

Does physical templates that require LoS scatter on a holofield? Or is that limited to physical templates that are round (6 and 12 cm) that require LoS?

When stating it like that I think I know what the intent of the rules is.....

Intent of rules are very relevant when discussing the current rules. I agree it should be specified if the intent was for templates to scatter so as to not cause further confusion. Also the different rules in the eldar codex and base rules causes confusion as it is ;) If it was not the intent to scatter the templates the rules should remain untouched.

But with RAW some things does not work as intented e.g.for tyranids gargoyles are skimmmers and can not exit a harridan unless it lands (thats only for jump troops). I dont think that is as intented, but thats RAW. So several places the rules are used as intented not as written.

Scream: the eldar titan template is very fragile and no shield means that the energy pulse is a near auto destruction if hit. All other titans and pretorians has a defence in their shields. It is only "logical" that the holofield offers protection like other titan shields. Unless there is a reason to let eldar titans be highly vulnerable to those attacks compated to ther titans and pretorians, which I do not know.

P.S. agan, biased as I play eldar. Especially as it went from a scatter and psy save in earlier threads (the one I linked to) to no scatter and no save, just near auto destruction for this specific power.


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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:33 pm 
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@Primarch: If that was the intent back in the day, then whoever did the actual writing seriously flubbed their "Creative Writing" skill check and whoever was editing failed to catch the blunder. The current RaW does not say that.

@everyone:
Looking at the rules should clear this up. Specifically, that the Field affects targeting. Any weapon that needs to target a specific spot (IE, one stand or a 2cm by 2cm area) is thus affected. As a Template affects an area larger than that, the actual targeting is largely irrelevant, and the primary effect of the Field is bypassed. A Barrage Template begins as an incoming shell (in most cases anyway) that does need to target a specific spot, thus it is affected in a way, despite not directly targeting the Titan itself. By targeting a spot close enough to the Titan so that the blast will affect it, it falls within the effect of the Field and thus is required to scatter. Once it detonates, it then affects a large area and that explosion thus bypasses the primary effect of the Field.

In other words, the shell that will generate a Barrage Template is affected by the Field before it becomes a Template. Any non-Barrage Template is already a Template (IE, already affecting an area) when it interacts with the Field, and thus ignores it.

The above also agrees with the fluff (as far as I recall) and with both version of the rule. As a note, the rules in the Eldar codex would override the ones in the Core Rulebook, as that is how this game functions.

As a further note, if you want a more balanced game, perhaps you should try playing using the Points Formula values as in that system a Phantom Titan (with weapons) will cost about 2/3rds of a Warlord (with weapons), and about half of a Dominatrix.

As to what weapons would be affected, I made several threads detailing all of the weapons in the game and their relative values. Those can be searched more easily than codexes (sp?), I'd think. I'll poke at those and get back to you. Not that specific weapons really matter that much, as the general rule is more important, but it could be interesting.

The comment about the Harridan is partly, but not entirely, correct. Note that it specifically states that the carried Gargoyles can make their Infiltrate move after the Harridan uses its own such move. In that specific case, the Gargoyles may disembark without the Harridan landing.

As a note, I occasionally play Eldar as well, thus pinning this down is important. That said, I still feel that the Energy Pulse would ignore the Field and not scatter. In other words, Eldar have to be careful with their Titans when a Dominatrix is around.

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 Post subject: Re: Holo-field and templates
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:57 am 
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Magus: That is just an explanation to justify the current system, it does not IMO explain why some physical templates that require LOS scatter and others do not. I still disagree with that "vision".

An easy exapmle is the ordinatus Golgotha vs the otdinatus Mars. Both fire a template weapon that require LOS, but one uses barage templates. The barage weapon scatters because of the distortion effect, while the other template does not scatter....The flamer template is much bigger and would have a larger chance of being on target even with the scatter which takes into account the properbility of hitting with a larger template.
Golgotha Mars results in eldar titans being hit on a 2+ with a 5+ armor save (the effect of the weapon) with no help from the holo field at all, where other titans simply loose a void shield.
For the energy pulse other titans loose an average of 3.5 void shield to a succefull hit. The eldar titan is simply hit with everything (most likely destroyed) on a hit.
The psy cannon on imperial titans can not affect a titan with a shield up but again eldar titans are left without a defence against this weapon

There are other examples and I am suprised (and clearly disagree) that eldar titans should be left without any defence against those kind of attacks when all other titans and pretorians have a defense against them. That does not sound like the intent based on primarchs statement.

If the intent is for the holofield to "distort" the vision and cause all direct physical templates to scatter then the proposerd solution does nothing for this.

In regards to fails in editing and intent we have seen some of those. Like first fire not counting as an activation despite this exact example being used in the rulebook. Squat VP calculations etc. So this would not be the first time where the rules and intents are not the same and needs updating.


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