Hi,

we had a question about Deathstrike missile launcher:

what's the missile movement value when the missile has just been launched ?

It's clearly stated that missile can move up to 35cm in each compulsary move once launched but nothing about the turn is was launched.

We have 2 possibilities:
On turn missile is launched:
a) no movement, missile is just getting altitude (so Deathstrike missile can not hit anything before next turn compulsary movement
Or
b) missile can move up to 35cm and even fall on a target in this range.

My player group stick usually uses b) but some players have asked us about the possibility a) as nothing in unit description talks about movement before next compulsary move.

Any idea/preference would be appreciated

I still apply the 2nd edition rules to the Deathstrike Missiles. That is, on the turn each is fired, it is considered to be making a "Pop-Up" like action while having some forward motion as well and is placed 1D6*10cm directly in front of the launcher model. Note that this is not an "up to" number, but exactly that number. In other words, if a 4 is rolled, the missile must be placed exactly 40cm directly in front of the launcher model. It could not be placed 25cm away. [Once or twice we decided to roll 10D6 just for fun and randomness sake.]

If this random distance places the missile within a cm or two of a desired target, it may be triggered immediately. Otherwise, it will fly as described on subsequent turns.

I also still use the per-turn movement as 1D6*10cm rather than the NetEpic automatic average of 35cm. This is a personal preference though, as using the NetEpic automatic average of 35cm will work fine as well.

If using the 35cm number instead of rolling, the first turn's movement should be exactly 35cm, not "up to" 35cm. This is because the missile is still descending during this movement and is at too high an altitude to explode. Well, except for possibly the last few cm. Again, my preference, but the missile should not be allowed to explode until it is the full distance away from the launcher.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

The deathstrike rules have always been in pain, with potential for abuse given its "open" interpretation on things like movement and how far off the floor of the battlefield it flies.

The intent back in the day, is that much like modern tomahawk missiles it can fly "nap of the earth" and around obstacles until it finds the target.

Thus is should always move the full move (whichever you use, the average or the old random die roll) on turns it won't "Detonate" (no "up to" but full move) and be able to detonate (or whatever the missile effect is) at any point of its full move or segment thereof on the turn it will hit an eligible target.

That's how I use it and at least what it was envisioned originally.

Note though, I am very dissatisfied on how it works and would have done something different if I were permitted to do so back then.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Interestingly, the 2nd edition restriction on "up to" is only during the turn when launched. Despite specifying that the full rolled distance must be measured out and moved, the description in the "Armies of the Imperium" book says that the missile may explode at any point along that path. In other words, it says that you must move the full rolled distance, but you really don't have to. [Gotta love old school GW writing.] Thus "up to" is actually appropriate for any turn after the initial. EDIT: If it explodes anyway. On a turn it does not explode it would have to move the full distance, whether that is rolled or fixed. As Primarch said above.

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Net Epic Coordinator

In fact, NetEpic Rule for the Deathstrike Launcher is just missing "Turn missile was launched part"

By keeping the 35cm movement, we could just say:

"When missile is launched, it moves up to the air and start falling down at 35cm from the launcher. If any target is at this point, it will detonate immediatly, else, it will move up to 35cm in each subsequent compulsary move until reaching a target. Missile has enough fuel for 4 turns".

PS: my wording is not very good, I hope you get the idea and reformulate it in a better english

Personally, I have always considered the missile to act like a Skimmer. That is, it can pass over any terrain as needed to reach it's target. It can also choose to go around said terrain if the player needs to use up distance or does not want to risk getting Snap Fired upon.

However, there could be benefit to defining the missiles as Flyers. Then they could travel at High altitude and thus target other Flyers at that altitude.

Either way, it should be specified. Or not.

@scream: your wording just above is decent. I would change it slightly to:

Note the difference between "must" and "may".

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

That sounds pretty good.

I agree with Magnus that missiles would benefit from some definition of "fliers". After all such missles should take "some" incoming fire, even at a penalty it may be good to do so given the usual "intense" effects these missiles have.

Of course warp missiles are a whole other problem.

Primarch

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We do not really to make them flyer/skimmers. The part "can only be targeted by AA weapons with a -2 to-hit penalty" is enough to make them very hard to hit (and they should). If hitting them is made easier, players will just stop playing DS Missile Launchers.

The bit I added noting Skimmer was intended to be only in reference to movement. The targeting rules, as noted by scream, should remain as they are. Even if the missile were categorized as a Flyer, the targeting rules for it would override the rules for targeting Flyers, as rules for specific models always override general rules. Thus there is no problem there.

The only reason that I see to consider calling them Flyer would be for determining how they are allowed to move and what they can target. The main part of that is that they could then target other Flyers at High Altitude. While it would make the missiles slightly more powerful than they are now, it is probably an unnecessary change.

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Net Epic Coordinator

We just had a discussion about using a Deathstrike Missile (Warp or Barrage) against flyers...

Could they target at flyer (high or low altitude) ?

If I had to choose, I'd say no but some may have arguments for say "Yes or Why not or depend on altitude".

On my side, I find that those slow missiles flying over the buildings are not fast/agile enough to target at fliers. And Imperial Guard already enough good AA units...But I could understand that a low altitude flyer could be hit too :|

The missiles are already described as moving very fast (see the penalty to hit against them), thus they should be able to hit a Flyer that is at Low Altitude using their current movement rules. Note also that they do not actually have to hit the Flyer itself, as they can just explode nearby. Well, most missiles anyway.

Personally, I would (and do) say that these missiles cannot target Flyers at High Altitude using their current movement rules. To do so, the missiles themselves would have to be considered Flyers, which would increase their cost. Hmm, I should poke at that and see how much it would increase. That could be useful as a variant rather than as a change to the default missiles.

It could be interesting to develop an AA missile for the Deathstrike Launcher, but as you mentioned it may not be needed. On the other hand, there is another whole thread on here discussing the lack of effective AA versus Flyers.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

I would agree that they could not target fliers at high altitude.

As for "effective" AA, as mentioned, would other can of worms.

Primarch

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Thanks for your replies,

for our november tournament, I've added an entry in the faq about Deathstrike Missiles Vs Fliers:

- Deathstrike Missiles Vs Fliers: Deathstrike missiles can only target flier at low altitude and -1 to hit penalty will apply. They may affect the aerial unit or units on the ground, but not both.

> last sentence comes from Low Altitude definition in rulebook

That should be reasonable.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Hi!

Looks good!

Primarch

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