scream wrote:
primarch wrote:
The only purpose of revealing the order in this context is to:
1. Prove to the opponent the formation had first fire orders and is eligible to snap fire.
2. A revealed order means the formation had executed its actions for this turn and can no longer perform further actions (some exceptions may exist).
Note that the second can be easily achieved by removing the order altogether to signify the formation has acted (as I have seen some groups do). I keep the order revealed next to the formation to avoid confusion with formations with actual "no orders" (forgot to place counter at turns beginning).
I also find keeping them revealed reminds everyone of what took place.
Basically you usually cannot perform an action without revealing the order (how else would the opponent know you are eligible to do said action?). Once performed how you choose to keep track of activated formations (remove counter or leave it) is up to individual tastes.
Revealing an order and activation in this context is virtually synonymous. I can't recall a scenario where you "activate" a formation and don't reveal an order. Or the other way around. So if your doing something, odds are you will have to first reveal the order then execute whatever it is your going to do going by said order. They go hand in hand.
Primarch
Hi Peter,
I'm a bit confused about your explanation as, once players have placed all their orders during "Placing Order Segments", each player "activates" a detachment by revealing its order. When I reveal a "First Fire" Order on an artillery detachment, I have not executed its action (as its action is to fire during First Fire Segment). I've just revealed its order to "gain" an activation on my opponent as my Artillery detachment (Bombard detachment for example) weapon can not perform "Snap Fire" (its weapon is a ranged template weapon).
When I reveal an "Advance Order", I can perform advance movement for my detachment but it has not done all its actions, they will be able to fire in "Advance Fire" segment. I should remove order from a detachment once it has resolved all its actions. For example when detachment has:
- Charge order -> I remove its order once it has moved
- Advance Fire Order -> Once it has fired in Advance Fire segment (or when it has been charged and enemy pinning class is enough to prevent it from firing later)
- First Fire Order -> When I've revealed its order to perform a "Snap Fire" action or once it has fired in "First Fire Segment"
So if I follow the rule "no snap fire" once order is revealed, the only way to "keep" some activations to perform a snap fire action is to "pass" on revealing my orders. This means that by the start of First Fire segment, I can have some orders not revealed. This is very important in the case of my opponent has some skimmers that could perform pop-up actions. If I want to shoot at them when pop-uping, it's a "Snap Fire" action but as I can't do Snap Fire if I've revealed my First Fire Order. So I need to keep some detachments with an unrevealed First Fire order, the only way to be in this situation is to pass during "Movement Sequence".
This also mean that I could "bluff" by passing with some detachments in Advance or Charge Orders that I choose to not reveal their order (so they won't move) but my opponent will not know their order until a later segment (very probably not before Advance Fire Segment).
Is all the text in italic OK or is there something wrong ?
This way of playing (keeping some unrevealed orders for later snap fire) is quite complicated for a new player who has not read many many times all the rules and was not able to merge all the small rules about "Snap Fire" in a comprehensible rule and a clear "how to play it".
Hi!
Ah, I see where the problem lies now.
You really can't "pick" a formation on first fire orders during the movement phase in order to "gain" an activation advantage.
If the the formation has first fire orders it really should only be activated during the combat phase as it cannot move. That is too "gamey" and would go against the spirit, if not letter of the rules.
Therefore during the movement phase only formations with advance, charge, HQ units or other special move formations could be activated.
First fire formations cannot move, therefore can't just be "activated" and do nothing in the movement phase.
The only valid first fire activation in the movement phase is to snap fire.
In other words if you reveal your first fire counter in the movement phase is must be to perform snap fire. You don't just reveal it it and do nothing until it gets to fire. That would be an "empty activation" done for activation advantage which is invalid.
I believe if you eliminate this point, then everything else falls into place and the written rules make more sense as revealing the order means you have activated and you performed an action (moving then firing).
But in the case of first fire formation there is no movement, therefore, at least the way its been traditionally viewed for net epic in the context of alternating movement activation, those formations do not receive a "movement activation". Only a combat activation to resolve fire.
To do it the way your doing it gives first fire orders even more of an advantage that it has now (i.e too much).
One of the things that has been recommended for Platinum is that first fire have an associated cost. Since first fire formations are stationary opponents firing on them gain some sort of modifier or re-roll of misses.
That does not exist in Gold. Giving them an "empty" move activation segment makes first fire even more valuable than it already is.
Do you follow what I have tried to explain?
I have seen many interpretations of order handling and revealing, yours is a new interesting one I had not encountered.
Primarch
