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Hmm think I broke netepic

 Post subject: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:11 am 
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If you use a 3000pt blood angel chapter list
Composing of
1 veteran assault company
1predator detachment
1 land raider/Baal predator (not fuigured out what it will take)
Load them into a marine drop ship

1 battle company loaded into 3 t-birds

And 1 death company loaded into a t-bird

I think you broke the game

Simple math veteran assult units 16 breakpoint 10
Battle company units 17 breakpoint 15 and one hiten company hq and rhino
Death company units 8 breakpoint one hiten chaplain
I don't think this should be a way to play the game but all right if you say so let carnage commence

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:54 am 
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Hi!

IF the opposing play has AA for fighters, it may be a short game if the dropship gets taken out before deployment.... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:26 pm 
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I do feel broken.

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:36 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Hi!

The mass drop via Thawks, dropships is an overpowered combination in the original game due to lack of AA or interceptors. I remember winning lots of 1 turn knockouts with that.

Once AA and other fliers got into the mix it got dicey. This is why we tackled many variant of flier rules, to curtail this particular force composition.

So it really depends on what kind of rules your using and what your opponent brings. IF he has no AA or interceptors, it may be a short game for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:35 pm 
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Good point. I never play without some aircraft and AA.

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:40 pm 
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I never play with either! Still stuck in '92...

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:59 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I never play with either! Still stuck in '92...


yeah, 1892 ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:22 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
I never play with either! Still stuck in '92...


yeah, 1892 ;)


I can't put it I any better than Simon Pegg at the end of this clip.

http://youtu.be/mOa-moAaEJ4

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:28 am 
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duz.holger wrote:
If you use a 3000pt blood angel chapter list
Composing of
1 veteran assault company
1predator detachment
1 land raider/Baal predator (not fuigured out what it will take)
Load them into a marine drop ship

1 battle company loaded into 3 t-birds

And 1 death company loaded into a t-bird

I think you broke the game

Simple math veteran assult units 16 breakpoint 10
Battle company units 17 breakpoint 15 and one hiten company hq and rhino
Death company units 8 breakpoint one hiten chaplain
I don't think this should be a way to play the game but all right if you say so let carnage commence



Okay, lets break this down.

The Vet Assault Company still has a BP of 15, even when mounted in the dropship and to start with you have 19 stands. You lose 3 to the death company, which count towards your BP. So you need to lose 12 of the remaining 16 stands to be broken.
Similarly with the Battle Company, BP of 15 even in THawks. 19 stands plus the command rhino, lose 3 to the death company, leaving you with 17 models, again which you need to lose 12 of to be broken.
Now you have a death company of 6 stands plus the chaplin, so 7 in total. Unfortunately they won't fit into the THawk. The Chaplin is part of the unit and has to go with them as per the rules. Taken from the Blood Angels section in the Gold book:

"Commanding the fanatic marines is a task that taxes the abilities of even the best commanders, forcing the Chaplain to concentrate on his troops and disregard other units around him. Thus, he is not only bound to the unit and unable to break formation with it, but also devoid of the normal Chaplain ability of raising the CAF of the nearby troops. As he is part of the unit he acts with the rest of the troops and is not given separate orders. However, the Chaplain is still considered a HQ stand for purposes of targeting."

So you can not leave the Chaplin and a Rhino hiding. He has to go with the rest of the death company. Sorry.

But like most others have said, there are ways to fight this and most AA units are still usable even if not facing fliers.
I also think this list would struggle against a titan once you have landed, you don't exactly have the heavy weapons to deal with it.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:06 am 
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Actually, there is no way to load a Veteran Assault company into a Dropship as it doesn't have enough capacity for the troops and their Rhinos....which cannot be separated. The foot slogger rule which allows Marines to leave their Rhinos behind explicitly states they cannot use any other form of transport. You could legally load them into drop pods though....far less protection, proper break point adjustment, and a bit more random, for the same cost.

The Battle Company can fly in T-Birds and will be hard to stop of course, but you pay a premium for them. The T-Birds are fodder for interceptors and when offloading troops cant fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:49 am 
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That is true about the Footsloggers rule, but on page 27 of the main rulebook we have this:

"Special Rule: Only Standard Transports are Free
Many army cards contain both combat units and transports. If you purchase a different type of transport (such as Thunderhawks for Marines) and start the game loaded up, you lose the normal transport vehicles. If the troops don’t start loaded up they may board the transport on turn one, but must observe coherency between their normal transports. You always lose the normal transports for Drop Pods."

So if you choose to keep the cost of the formation at its normal cost (and not drop it by 100pts for losing the rhinos), then they can be mounted in other transports from the start.
Plus, although it doesn't specifically state it under the drop ship rules, I would expect them to be treated like thawks, and they say:

"Detachments that begin the game loaded on Thunderhawks lose their normal transports, but their Break Points remain the same."

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:19 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
That is true about the Footsloggers rule, but on page 27 of the main rulebook we have this:

"Special Rule: Only Standard Transports are Free
Many army cards contain both combat units and transports. If you purchase a different type of transport (such as Thunderhawks for Marines) and start the game loaded up, you lose the normal transport vehicles. If the troops don’t start loaded up they may board the transport on turn one, but must observe coherency between their normal transports. You always lose the normal transports for Drop Pods."

So if you choose to keep the cost of the formation at its normal cost (and not drop it by 100pts for losing the rhinos), then they can be mounted in other transports from the start.
Plus, although it doesn't specifically state it under the drop ship rules, I would expect them to be treated like thawks, and they say:

"Detachments that begin the game loaded on Thunderhawks lose their normal transports, but their Break Points remain the same."

Matt


Hi!

Good catch! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:28 am 
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Mattman wrote:
That is true about the Footsloggers rule, but on page 27 of the main rulebook we have this:

"Special Rule: Only Standard Transports are Free
Many army cards contain both combat units and transports. If you purchase a different type of transport (such as Thunderhawks for Marines) and start the game loaded up, you lose the normal transport vehicles. If the troops don’t start loaded up they may board the transport on turn one, but must observe coherency between their normal transports. You always lose the normal transports for Drop Pods."

Matt


As a general principle the special rules in an army book (Foot sloggers) would supercede generic rules from the core book (Only standard transports are free). In any case, OTSAF is only talking about what happens to the transports in that circumstance (You dont get to keep both) and does not say the units' break point is unchanged.

Another important thing about reading rules is dont assume anything, just read them as written. If it doesn't say it, it doesn't happen. It is not appropriate to assume units in a drop ship can "freely" ditch their transports. As co-designer of the rules for the Dropship I can categorically state this was not the intention. Indeed, the drop ship particularly can carry transports, so this argument is doubly invalid.


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 Post subject: Re: Hmm think I broke netepic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:52 am 
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But don't forget that Footsloggers is an optional rule. I would take the Core Special Rule over an Optional unless my opponent specifically asks to use it.

As seems to be the case with several issues in NetEpic, I suspect the issue regarding BP for units in alternative transports was just missed as that is something that is applicable across several army lists.

On to the rule design.
Firstly, that picture in the army list technically isn't a dropship, it is a landing craft, it is labelled incorrectly. The imperial drop ship is the big brick in the titan legion list. Are you talking about the marine landing craft, or imperial drop ship.
Secondly, the numbers seem rather odd. I understand that it can only carry 6 vehicles based on its design, but allowing it to carry 18 stands seems to imply (well to me anyway) that it should be able to carry a company/3 detachments worth of infantry, but due to your vehicle restriction, you can't, since they can't all take their rhinos with them. If that is the case, then the transport is looking much worse than I believed it to be.
Thirdly, someone can correct me, but I believe the landing craft was released as part of EA, in that system, they can only carry 12 stands, which would support your idea of taking the transports with them. But somewhere along the lines we have gained enough space to squeeze another 6 stands in. Why was that?

Matt


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