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Ork Clan Question
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25967		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Ork Clan Question
In NetEpic Gold Ork Book it states:

"Special Rule: No Duplicate Clans.

...*ignores fluff*... When constructing an Ork army you may not take a second copy of a Clan (Company) Card until you have purchased one of each of the other Clan Cards."

I'm assuming that the Cult of Speed does not count as a Clan card? Or does it?

I'm clear that the Wildboyz Horde and the Mega-Gargant do not count as Clan cards so can be ignored for the purposes of this rule.

It's also annoying about the 10 support card rule that you can only buy extra Boyz for the extra 5 support cards. I'd like it if the extra 5 could be spent on extra Boyz and/or Battlewagon transports. I didn't put this in the Ork rules ammendment section because I don't expect it to change - I just wanted to voice my displeasure about it...

...And it would suit my Goff clan a lot better if I could do this!!!
Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
As a supplementary question, for some reason I had it in my head that the Kult of Speed could only take vehicle cards but I couldn't find anything about this in the Ork book.

Is it the case that they can take any support cards other than Clan specific ones*? I know it wouldn't be advantageous to throw slow troops in, but just interested.

*I know I can add Evil Sunz specific support cards to the Kult of Speed.
Author:  primarch [ Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
Hi!

I'm going to have to go over this stuff. I'm pretty rusty, so I have to review it all to know what the intent was.

Primarch
Author:  The Bissler [ Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I'm going to have to go over this stuff. I'm pretty rusty, so I have to review it all to know what the intent was.

Primarch


Thanks - no hurry for this though. I'm sure you have plenty of other projects on the go! ;)
Author:  scream [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
KoS is a clan card and you can pick non-vehicle support cards for it (as a Soopa Gun or Traktor Kannon...)

I think it could be nice to have a "codex" army list for Orks, as it exists in E:A.

For example, a "Da Red Mobb Codex" that would be limited to the Evil sunz Clan and Kult of Speed (could be picked several times) and would be limited to bikes/vehicles/flyers/mekboy vehicles/motorized infantry/Mekboy Gargants.
Author:  The Bissler [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
Cheers Scream - it does seem that you do have to buy a lot before you can get that 2nd clan (I'd like a 2nd Bad Moons or Goff clan). That means I can't do so unless I am playing a 5,000 game, and even then, that's without much in the way of support or special cards;

Bad Moons 600
Blood Axes 600
Deathskulls 500
Evil Sunz 600
Goffs 650
Snakebites 600
Kult of Speed 400

Total: 3,950 points

Harsh!

I dunno what I think about the Codex list... What about no duplicate Clans unless you have bought at least four clans? Would that be an acceptable compromise?
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
I've located the problem you are having with the "No Duplicate Clans" rule. The problem is: "Ignores Fluff." Orks are really not an army that should be played if you ignore fluff, as they are very fluff heavy. Their fluff is reflected in their crunch as well, so one really cannot get away from it.

The Kult of Speed is a Clan card, and thus holds to the limit. Any normal or Evil Sunz support formation is usable though.

I feel that the No Duplicates rule is functioning as intended, as it is a carryover from 2nd. It is fine as is, and should not be changed at the base level.

That said, I would have no problem with some optional rules, whether as "Codex" lists or otherwise, that could allow a person to run a single-clan Ork army. Such lists would have to be heavily limited as to which support and special formations were allowed to each, and would thus only really be useful for games of up to a couple thousand points or so.
Author:  The Bissler [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I've located the problem you are having with the "No Duplicate Clans" rule. The problem is: "Ignores Fluff."


I don't know why you are bothering trying to convince me otherwise about the fluff Magnus. You know the score by now with this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkMEgKyy1Dc ;D

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Orks are really not an army that should be played if you ignore fluff, as they are very fluff heavy. Their fluff is reflected in their crunch as well, so one really cannot get away from it.


I've got the stats, that's all I need. Watch me go! ;D

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The Kult of Speed is a Clan card, and thus holds to the limit. Any normal or Evil Sunz support formation is usable though.

I feel that the No Duplicates rule is functioning as intended, as it is a carryover from 2nd. It is fine as is, and should not be changed at the base level.

That said, I would have no problem with some optional rules, whether as "Codex" lists or otherwise, that could allow a person to run a single-clan Ork army. Such lists would have to be heavily limited as to which support and special formations were allowed to each, and would thus only really be useful for games of up to a couple thousand points or so.


I could be wrong, but I don't remember the Kult of Speed being part of the no duplicate clans rule in SM2, instead I'm sure it was the basic clan specific mobs - which is why I was raising the question.
To be honest, I never expected the rules to change anyway, it's just more a case of it's a bit frustrating to have a shitload of vanilla troops, ie +1 CAF and no mods on save modifiers.
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
Yeah, not really seriously trying to change your mind, just stating my view. Different people think differently.

Well, if you really want more Goffs, there is always the 'Extra Boyz' Support formations.
Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
Interestingly, the Core Rulebook suggests a way around my problem. Page 13 on Unique Cards:

"You may take one of a Unique Card (such as the Snakebite Ork Clan) for every full 3,000 points in your army, though personalities (such as Commissar Yarrik) may never be duplicated. Unique Cards usually count as Special Cards."

I'm certain it is not the way the game should be played, but by implication, for a battle of 4,000 points, I could buy 2 Bad Moon Clans without having to bother about what other Ork clans there are.
Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
Ok, a proper question now:

Nobz Mobz - presumably although Nobz are Command, HQ and Elite units, the Nobz in a single mob must maintain coherency rules?
Author:  primarch [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
The Bissler wrote:
Ok, a proper question now:

Nobz Mobz - presumably although Nobz are Command, HQ and Elite units, the Nobz in a single mob must maintain coherency rules?


Hi!

Yes. The mob is a formation and the rules apply to them. Even if the nob mob is made of HQ units.

Primarch
Author:  primarch [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
The Bissler wrote:
Interestingly, the Core Rulebook suggests a way around my problem. Page 13 on Unique Cards:

"You may take one of a Unique Card (such as the Snakebite Ork Clan) for every full 3,000 points in your army, though personalities (such as Commissar Yarrik) may never be duplicated. Unique Cards usually count as Special Cards."

I'm certain it is not the way the game should be played, but by implication, for a battle of 4,000 points, I could buy 2 Bad Moon Clans without having to bother about what other Ork clans there are.


Hi!

No. Every FULL 3000 points. You don't get the second one until you have 6000 points. The wording was done this way to avoid this loophole.

The point of these rules was that the clans are not equal. As it stands there is no point to bring anyone but goffs and bad moonz.

With this rule you are obligated to bring the rest of the clans before you start duplicating, or play very large battles to ignore the rules (every 3000 points).

For this rule to be eliminated the whole ork infantry list of stats would need to be revised or the costs of the clans adjusted. Not a bad idea, but one that was not favored in the past.

Primarch
Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
The Bissler wrote:
Interestingly, the Core Rulebook suggests a way around my problem. Page 13 on Unique Cards:

"You may take one of a Unique Card (such as the Snakebite Ork Clan) for every full 3,000 points in your army, though personalities (such as Commissar Yarrik) may never be duplicated. Unique Cards usually count as Special Cards."

I'm certain it is not the way the game should be played, but by implication, for a battle of 4,000 points, I could buy 2 Bad Moon Clans without having to bother about what other Ork clans there are.


That is an odd reference. Looks like the person who wrote that did not communicate with the person who wrote the 'No Duplicate Clans' rule in the Ork Codex. In the Ork Codex, the Clans are never referred to as being 'Unique' cards, as they are not. Limited yes, but not Unique (like the Commissar).

Actually, just a ways before that quoted bit is another relevant bit that weighs in on this issue. The last sentence of the second paragraph after the "Putting an army together" heading: "Special rules found in an Army Book generally supersede those found here..."

In my opinion, the latter part of that sentence (not quoted) should be dropped, as should the word "generally" from the quoted part, as Special Rules in a Codex should always override general rules. Leaving it to the discretion of the players might mean that different players in the same game are using different rules.

---

Just saw Primarch's reply. Perhaps the wording in the core rules needs to be cleaned up a bit.

First, the Clans are not 'Unique'. Perhaps a new entry for 'Limited' or 'Restricted'. The Commissar is Unique, and thus should not have duplicates regardless of army point size.

Second, perhaps change the wording to: "Once your army equals or exceeds 6000 points, you may take one additional 'Limited' card per full 3000 points of army." Or something along those lines that specifically mentions 6000 points.
Author:  ForgottenLore [ Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Ork Clan Question
primarch wrote:
For this rule to be eliminated the whole ork infantry list of stats would need to be revised or the costs of the clans adjusted. Not a bad idea, but one that was not favored in the past.

Well,I don't play orks, I don't particularly like orks, I don't know anyone who plays orks and I am not likely to ever meet anyone who plays orks, but for what its worth, I would be in favor of that idea. ;D
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