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Chaos Army List Question
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25306		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Chaos Army List Question
In the Chaos book there are 3 army types, the Power lists (daemons), the renegades (standard) and the marines and if I choose to build a Codex Nurgle list (for example) it says 75% of the army from that power and the standard lists.
So my question is, can the units from the two lists (power and standard) be freely mixed i.e. if I take a Chaos Renegade company, I can give it some Plaguebearers and Shamblers as support cards or if I pick a Great Unclean One as a company card, I can give it a Reaver Titan as a special card and some Trolls, Cultists and a Chaos Squat detachment as support. I am not restricted to standard list support and special cards being attached to standard company cards, likewise the Nurgle cards only being with Nurgle company cards.
So although they are listed as two separate lists, when building a Codex army, you just treat them as one big list.

Although I can't take chaos marines/legion lists as allies as they are a codex list, not a standard list, I can take power lists as allies to chaos marines (though they would follow the allies rules and have to be their own company / support cards).
Plus if you take a chaos titan list you only get ad mech and the standard chaos, no access to powers or legion/marines.
Likewise you can't take a chaos titan list as allies to the legion/marines or powers since they are codex.

Matt
Author:  Irisado [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
From the Chaos army list, Greater Daemon special rules:

Quote:
8: Required Support: Greater Daemons have a minimum of three Support
Cards each. That is, you can’t take a Greater Daemon unless you also purchase three
to five Support Cards for it. These Support Cards must come from the same Power or
the Standard list (e.g. minions of Slaanesh will not serve a Khorne master).


I think that this probably answers your question, although I did get a bit lost as to precisely what you were asking.
Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
I must admit that I found this confusing as well. From my point of view, I wasn't sure if I could buy a Marine company in addition to my mainly Greater Demon-based force. In a recent battle I decided just to do what I liked and to hell with the rules!

I know this is hardly the answer anyone was looking for! :D
Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
Yeah, I sort of went off on several tangents on the other aspects of chaos army building.

I noticed the line in the greater daemons rules and just wanted to check it worked the other way round as well, but as Biss said, they are chaos, so just do what you like ;)
Author:  primarch [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
Hi!

I wouldn't overly worry about army construction with chaos Mattman. If you can use the models you have and your opponent isn't too picky, use what you got however you want.

The construction rules for all armies were based on playtest experiences where certain armies, if permitted too liberal a selection could be deemed "overpowered". Think of it this way, a chaos army with khorne units for close combat, Tzeentch ones for range with a sprinkling of chaos marines for special powers and marine transport makes for a very strong army in the hands of a veteran player.

Of course if you and your regular opponent consider yourselves at that level, take all the restrictions out and play games with chaos (and any other army) unleashed! They can be real fun games as you fight fire with fire of your own.

My personal favorite between two experienced players is chaos unleashed versus the combined arms of the imperium ( a mixed IG and SM force) and let the better cheese win!!! :)

As always the rules present a baseline for more or less balanced play, but once you get a lot of games under your belt, go for broke and play games with your favorite dream "mega-army". ;)

Primarch
Author:  Mattman [ Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
That's what I thought. Wasn't planning on mixing the different powers together (yet!), just wanted to be able to mix and match with the standard lists.
Our society likes playing a lot of 40k apocalypse type games, so whenever we do that with Epic it would be fun to roll out the mega chaos army.
Author:  The Bissler [ Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
I'm playing a 5,000 battle next week, Chaos v Marines and I wanted to see what those in the know thought about my army list;

Khorne Bloodthirster 300
2 x Cannon of Khorne 400
2 x Fleshounds 200

Angron 300
4 x Demon Engines 1,200

Lord of Battle 400
2 x Juggernaughts 300
2 x Bloodletters 300
Troll Warband 250

World Eaters Century 600

Chaos Land Raider Co 750


I've tried to be reasonably true to the intention of the rules as I have picked largely Khorne forces and respected the fact that I need at least 3 support for each greater demon. However, I am guilty of two rules breaches:-

1) 75% of the points force should be on Khorne forces, ie 1,250 points. The Marine aspect of the army total is 1,350. If you count the Troll Warband, this sum increases to 1,600
2) To the best of my knowledge, I shouldn't be able to buy Trolls for a Khorne specific force and definitely not for Chaos Marines.

In my defence:
1) 1,350 is just over the 75% rule.
2) I don't see why Trolls shouldn't be able to back up a Khorne army which is heavy on the beasties.

Does anyone think that I'm being grossly unfair in this army selection?

To give a bit of background, my opponent (my nephew) is is relatively inexperienced at Epic - he has been playing for about a year now - and has not read any of the rules. He has only picked up what I've explained to him and we're both very new to Chaos (this will be the 2nd time he has played against them as I only painted them up at the tail end of last year). He certainly knows how to play Eldar and is pretty clued up on Marines & IG. I've taken a good few hammerings of late and he is on a substantial winning streak against me.

Thoughts?
Author:  scream [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
I think you forgot to buy the 2 arm weapons on the Lord Of battle...@400 points, you only have the hull...That's why LoB victory points varies.
Author:  Mattman [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
I have it that you have spent 85% on Khorne as the World Eaters are part of the Khorne list, not the chaos marine list. Unless you mean Word Bearers?

Also you can't take the Land Raiders (and Word Bearers if that is what they are meant to be) as allies to a Power list.
It says:

Up to 25% into ...
Any (or all) of the other Powers, or any one Standard List except Eldar or Space Marines.

The Chaos space Marines are classed as a Codex list not a Standard list, so you can't take them as allies.
So your list is illegal from the get go.

Now you can do it the other way round and take the Chaos Marines as the main list, but then you can only have a maximum of 25% of daemons/power. I think taking a power as an ally to marines is the only way you can get two Codex lists in one army, most of the others specify only picking from standard lists for allies.

Matt
Author:  The Bissler [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
Ach, motherloving saggy flaps of beef! Damn the rules!

Yes, I had forgotten to arm my Lord of Battles and hadn't appreciated that I couldn't pick Marines. I also got confused about the World Eaters Century, of course they are part of the Khorne army, thanks for keeping me right chaps!

Anyway, the tantrum's over, let's try again...

Khorne Bloodthirster 300
2 x Cannon of Khorne 400
Fleshounds 100

Angron 300
4 x Demon Engines 1,200

Lord of Battle with Hellblade and Doomburner 490
2 x Juggernaughts 300
2 x Bloodletters 300

World Eaters Century 600

Daemon Horde 400
2 x Rhinos 100
Reaver Titan w/Quake Cannon & 2 Turbo Laser Destructors 535

Total: 5,025

Apart from being 25 points over, does this seem better?
Author:  Mattman [ Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
The Bissler wrote:
Ach, motherloving saggy flaps of beef! Damn the rules!


Yeah. God damn rules getting in the way of our games ;D

Matt
Author:  Irisado [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
I think that it looks like a well themed list.

Against Marines, Devastators are going to be the biggest threat to your force, so you're going to need to tie them up, and/or neutralise them pretty quickly. Assuming your opponent makes use of buildings to give them a decent firing position, then the Cannons of Khorne, and that Quake Cannon, are going to be really handy.

I'd suggest a very fast flank attack, with the World Eaters in their Rhinos, Angron, Daemons, and Daemon Engines all acting as the spearhead. The Lord of Battles and Reaver Titan can hopefully draw fire away from the assault troops. The main thing is to keep going forward, and don't back out if you take heavy losses on turn one. The only way an army like this wins is by getting some units into close combat by turn 2.
Author:  The Bissler [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
Irisado wrote:
I think that it looks like a well themed list.

Against Marines, Devastators are going to be the biggest threat to your force, so you're going to need to tie them up, and/or neutralise them pretty quickly. Assuming your opponent makes use of buildings to give them a decent firing position, then the Cannons of Khorne, and that Quake Cannon, are going to be really handy.

I'd suggest a very fast flank attack, with the World Eaters in their Rhinos, Angron, Daemons, and Daemon Engines all acting as the spearhead. The Lord of Battles and Reaver Titan can hopefully draw fire away from the assault troops. The main thing is to keep going forward, and don't back out if you take heavy losses on turn one. The only way an army like this wins is by getting some units into close combat by turn 2.


Thanks, pretty certain I am going to throw pretty much the whole army down one flank with a few units sat in to defend objectives on the other flank.

Couple of quick questions to anyone who can help; I'm assuming that the Cannon of Khorne are subject to the no first fire rule like other Demon Engines? It feels counter-intuitive for an artillery piece not to be able to FF, so thought I'd better check.
Also, is it just me or is the Khorne-specific reward card that I get for taking the Century not in the NE:Gold rulebook? I've got the card from the original rules but wanted to check in case it had changed from back in the day when t' world was in black and white and everyone used to travel by horseback.
Stupid - When I looked up this "special ability" for my trolls, it explains that if someone isn't around to give them orders you have to roll to see what they do. What it doesn't tell you who can give them orders and how close they have to be. I'm assuming the Aspiring Champion will be able to do the job and that he'll probably have to stay within 10cm of one of the trolls.

:sos
Author:  primarch [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
Hi!

Bissler there's always an omission here and there. So it probably just got left out. The wording for the Khorne specific card should be the same.

Aspiring champion range for command radius is 10cm.

Primarch
Author:  Mattman [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Chaos Army List Question
The Khorne card for the century is in with the rest of the reward cards, the ones that specify the centuries are the last ones in the set.
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