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Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?

 Post subject: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:03 am 
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Hullo dar,

I recently started playing 2nd ed again after a 15 year break and my opponent, although new to Epic, has been playing 40K for some time, specifically eldar/dark eldar and now he's got the rules down he's really making my life hell with heavily jet bike based armies with Tempests for heavy fire support. Add wave serpents for the impenetrable shields and usually some squads with a very high CAF in falcons. Usually a Warlock titan as well. The jetbike speed and the popup attack ability of virtually everything in the army is a bit of a 'mare to deal with.

I usually go for a tac marine co, landraider co, warlord, whirlwind sqd, devastator sqd, vindicator sqd, librarian.

I also have a dread sqd, pred sqd, lots of vindicators, couple of thunderhawks, reaver, warhounds and imperator, plus more warlords, landraiders & marine infantry.


Otherwise I do have guard with virtually everything except the various Ordinatus', capitol imperialis or enough specialised troops to make full assault/rough rider/beastman etc companies.

Any general advice on how to play against them or what sort of units my army should contain would be helpful. We usually go for about 3000pts with the standard game type of trying to kill the other guy while capturing objectives to reach the VP threshold.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:43 am 
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I'm moving this thread to the NetEpic forum. NetEpic is essentially a community version of SM2, so they can help you out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:46 pm 
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3000 points is smaller than I'm used to, but I'll try to shoot you some advice.

- I don't know what your warlord is armed with model-wise, but you can do a lot to ruin an eldar players day with one. Stick 4 valcano cannons on it, and sit it on first fire all day long - anything will think twice about popping up with that thing around.

- What about the Warhounds? Those guys are fast - stick dual Vulcan mega bolters on them and go jetbike hunting.

- Wave serpents suck - but the shield is limited to a degree. If you can get your devastators to high ground or in a buiding, they may be able to see over the shield, allowing you to fire at the wave serpent. Alternately, drop some marines behind them via drop pods to take them out - better yet, use the support pods to fire at them from behind.

- If you see those falcons full of close combat troops coming your way, forget what you're doing and go on first fire - you likely wont beat them in close combat. Shoot them as they charge in.

- Eldar titans are vulnerable to barrages. Use bombards and basilisks to pound the hell out of 'em.

- Hold off using your thunderhawks to the last moment, then launch them all at once and land directly on any objective you can claim. I do this often with 4 or more of them. It's a great way to sinch up a sudden win.

Hope this helps!


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:31 pm 
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Very good points from Deacon

Use the Marine´s strenth
You have a better overall CC value
try to force your opponent to charge Marines on FF
Do not let your devestators being charged by jetbikes while they on charge or advance
As Deacon mentioted shoot the Wave serpents from above(houses hills ect.)
Use as many Jumppacks and Landspeeders as you can they will let your opponent think twice where to go with his skimmer tanks.

Do your opponent field Firestorms?
If not use Thunderhawks to snatch objectives

A long rangen(100cm) Warlord is always a choice
Vulcano cannon/quake cannon/MRL/Deathstrike missile launcher for the head

Try to kill all or most of the Jetbikes after CC(advance) they are sitting ducks now
Add a Chaplain(Assault troops) and Medic(devestators)
You could field Veterans(CC value +4) instead of Tactical Marines

Keep some FF units to shoot down up poping flyers


With the Guard you have more choices
use heavy artillery it pretend Eldar Titans from doing what they want.

Try to outrange your opponent with as much 100cm(or more) ranged units(Shadowswords ect.)
Field Large Comp. you can overan him with them
Use as much hydras as you have they have a lot of attac dice and a 100cm range
also able to snap fire
Warlords Warlords Warlords(LONG RANGED)
or Reavers with medium to short ranged weapons let them work together
Eldar Titans are often on advance or charge, so CC is a option

Hope that helps
as smaller the battle is as harder are Eldar as opponents my expierience


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:31 am 
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deacon wrote:
3000 points is smaller than I'm used to, but I'll try to shoot you some advice.

- I don't know what your warlord is armed with model-wise,


Yeah, I'm starting to realise that you have to be super judicious with your unit choices at this PV.

In my current game I chose rather poorly weapon wise now I think about it (just using what I glued onto the model 15 years ago), plasma cannon, volcano cannon, rocket launcher and chainfist. Plasma cannon is going to get used for hard targets, otherwise it's the launcher for light vehicles and infantry, should have chosen another weapon with more attacks rather than the volcano cannon.

Otherwise I can choose from whatever weapons I want.

deacon wrote:
- What about the Warhounds? Those guys are fast - stick dual Vulcan mega bolters on them and go jetbike hunting.


Hmm, intriguing. Do you think it would be best to have one with dual bolters and then the second of the pair have some long range anti tank stuff like a turbo laser just in case or should they just run away from hard targets?

deacon wrote:
Alternately, drop some marines behind them via drop pods to take them out - better yet, use the support pods to fire at them from behind.


I almost chose drop pods. Although you can't redeploy with them I think the likelihood of ever getting back into your rhino's once you've deployed is minimal and it makes them much harder to break, so I think drop pods it will be next time.

deacon wrote:
- Eldar titans are vulnerable to barrages. Use bombards and basilisks to pound the hell out of 'em.


Shame marines have poor artillery, guess I'll have to take a guard artillery/rocket company as allies.

Thanks for your reply.

ulric wrote:
Very good points from Deacon
Use as many Jumppacks and Landspeeders as you can they will let your opponent think twice where to go with his skimmer tanks.


I don't have any of those models (though I'm sure he'd let me proxy), how about bike squads? They probably lack the firepower though?

ulric wrote:
A long rangen(100cm) Warlord is always a choice
Vulcano cannon/quake cannon/MRL/Deathstrike missile launcher for the head


That leaves one weapon slot free doesn't it? Would a barrage missile launcher be useful against Eldat titans seeing as it ignores holo shields? Do you think the addition of a fire control centre makes it too vulnerable?

ulric wrote:
Add a Chaplain(Assault troops) and Medic(devestators)
You could field Veterans(CC value +4) instead of Tactical Marines


Now that's a good plan, a veteran company only costs 100 points more, put them in drop pods as deacon suggested and then a nearby chaplain puts their CAF up to +5.

ulric wrote:
Try to outrange your opponent with as much 100cm(or more) ranged units(Shadowswords ect.)
Use as much hydras as you have they have a lot of attac dice and a 100cm range
also able to snap fire


...and use the range well. In my current game I placed my whirlwinds too far forward; I could have had 2 full turns of completely safe fire hitting anywhere on the board, as it is I could well be close assaulted by jetbikes on turn 2. Doh!
Can Hydras fire at skimmers like jetbikes if they don't make popup attacks? Titan Legions says they can only hit targets on the ground that are titans or troops in buildings, do skimmers count as ground targets? They aren't literally "on the ground" which is the phrase used in TL but they aren't flyers either.

Thank you for your reply.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:50 am 
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Quote:
Hmm, intriguing. Do you think it would be best to have one with dual bolters and then the second of the pair have some long range anti tank stuff like a turbo laser just in case or should they just run away from hard targets?

I would arm them only with medium to short ranged weapons
due to thier great speed they should get fast over their targets IMO
Quote:
how about bike squads? They probably lack the firepower though?

Bikes and Speeders are mostly used for fast CC attacks
though bikes cannot pinn down skimmers, speeders and jumppacks do so
Quote:
That leaves one weapon slot free doesn't it? Do you think the addition of a fire control centre makes it too vulnerable?

No!
I am personally a big fan of the fire control center
Quote:
Would a barrage missile launcher be useful against Eldat titans seeing as it ignores holo shields?

Yeah would be a good choice IMO
Quote:
Can Hydras fire at skimmers like jetbikes if they don't make popup attacks? Titan Legions says they can only hit targets on the ground that are titans or troops in buildings, do skimmers count as ground targets? They aren't literally "on the ground" which is the phrase used in TL but they aren't flyers either.

Good question, we played it this way
If not, you also can use them to shoot down skimmers making pop up attacks
12x5+ to hit with 100cm range is always are good choice


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:46 am 
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Quote:
Yeah, I'm starting to realise that you have to be super judicious with your unit choices at this PV.


Very much so - you may want to try for a tactic of pure speed and numbers at this value, and focus purely on an objective win, which is what the marines excel at anyway.

As for titan armament, if you get any new models, use magnets to allow you to change out their gear to get the most out of the model from game to game. If you don't know how to do this, check out the following link:

http://www.stephane.info/show.php?code=magnets

Lastly, a reaver would be more suited for a long-range fire support role at this point level.

Quote:
Hmm, intriguing. Do you think it would be best to have one with dual bolters and then the second of the pair have some long range anti tank stuff like a turbo laser just in case or should they just run away from hard targets?


When I use warhounds, I use them as a single titan. IMO they are better than reavers - for the same amount of points, you get an extra weapon, same amount of shields, a faster speed, and a -1 to hit modifier on the charge! Anyways, arm both of them to carry out the same role for maximum effectiveness. With 4 Vulcans, you'll be throwing a massive 32 attack dice. With a 4+ to hit, that's an average of 16 infantry/bike kills easy. The range sucks, but the warhounds can get close enough quickly on charge, and are hard to hit while doing it.

As for the enemy shooting at them, or harder targets let another units handle that. Dual vulcan armed warhounds are all about one thing - killing swarms of stuff, and if they run out of things to kill, park them on an objective, or engage those hard targets in close combat if you think you have a good shot at winning.

Quote:
I almost chose drop pods. Although you can't redeploy with them I think the likelihood of ever getting back into your rhino's once you've deployed is minimal and it makes them much harder to break, so I think drop pods it will be next time.


Use the pods full of troops to snag objectives, or swarm transports full of infantry - you might be able to kill them AND the hard hitters hiding inside all at once. The missile and gun pods are meant to be a one shot thing - drop the missile pods into clusters of bikes and infantry, and the plasma gun pods right onto squads of tanks. If the pod actually lands ON the tank, they get hit with a -3 save modifier - otherwise they shoot with a -2. Either way, a great way of taking out tempests and wave serpents.

Quote:
Shame marines have poor artillery, guess I'll have to take a guard artillery/rocket company as allies.


Yeah whirlwinds aren't worth taking at all. So it's up to allies to help with the artillery - or you can ignore the enemy warlock titan all together, and use the points you would spend trying to fight it on more troops, droop pods, and thunderhawks to steal more objectives.

Try to make it a goal, that each turn "something" will be falling out of the sky onto objectives via pods or thunderhawks, and he'll be pulling his hair out trying to figure out a way to deal with it. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:32 am 
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Didn't see it anywhere above so, drop the Landraiders. Against Eldar and their pop ups they are just free VPs for them. Marine cheese - Scout company + 3 Thunderhawks, and Devestator companies. Just about everything else the Marines have is substandard. On Titans, in SM2 Reaver > Warlord > Warhounds.

For Guard, Tac company, Heavy Company, Rough Rider Company, Arty company, Shadow Swords, sentinels. 3000 points that will smush any Eldar army :)


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:42 am 
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Interesting comments zap - about your titan "best-to-worst" scale: I've always thought warlords were overpriced by about 150 points. (Even the battle group card seems to agree - 1500 for 3. Standard titan groups are 3 for 2 deals). Anyways, for 100 more points you can get 2 reavers, or 4 warhounds which offer 6 and 8 titan weapons respectively. If yer playing as a titan leagion, 1000 points can get you three reavers!

So, why do you put Warlords where you do in your scale - is it the choice of weaponry they have access too?


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:07 pm 
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ulric wrote:
Bikes and Speeders are mostly used for fast CC attacks
though bikes cannot pinn down skimmers, speeders and jumppacks do so


Ah, that is very valuable knowledge, thanks, I was looking for a way to pin those sneaky elves.

deacon wrote:
Very much so - you may want to try for a tactic of pure speed and numbers at this value, and focus purely on an objective win, which is what the marines excel at anyway.


So maybe a Ravenwing company instead of the landraiders? leaves an extra 200pts to play with IIRC


zap123 wrote:
Didn't see it anywhere above so, drop the Landraiders. Against Eldar and their pop ups they are just free VPs for them.


Yeah, I should have realised that after my 1st battle. 9/10 went down and made 2 saves the entire game, but because I won by a wide margin I didn't really learn from it. Same happened in the second game, wiped out but I won so I ignored it. I've just been using them because they are painted and I don't like using unpainted or proxy models.

Do you think a ravenwing co would be a better choice as I mentioned above?

zap123 wrote:
For Guard, Tac company, Heavy Company, Rough Rider Company, Arty company, Shadow Swords, sentinels. 3000 points that will smush any Eldar army :)


I don't have the models for the roughrider co, any other suggestions for a replacement.


Thanks for help everyone... I've been looking through my available painted units and come up with a couple of choices.

Company card: Veteran Co :800
special card: Chaplain: 50
(support cards: devastator pltn: 350 & thunderhawk: 50 if titan choice is warhounds)

Ravenwing co: 400
special card: drop pods: free

Company card: IG artillery: 600 + free commissar
special card: Warhounds (2x vulcan each): 500 OR Warlord (volcano, quake, barrage ML, fire control, deathstrike head): 900
support card: hydra sqd: 250

I think that if I take the IG artillery co and the Warlord titan then should the titan have something other than the barrage missile launcher and deathstrike head as IG has the barrages covered? Or would an IG heavy or tac co be better and keep the Warlord armed as it is? Or are the warhounds the best choice anyway?

Thanks again for your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Quote:
Bikes and Speeders are mostly used for fast CC attacks
though bikes cannot pinn down skimmers, speeders and jumppacks do so


Ah, that is very valuable knowledge, thanks, I was looking for a way to pin those sneaky elves.

Have to correct me a bit during SM/TL we played(and play) that Jumppacks can pin Skimmers
but after NETEPIC rules they can´t

Seeing this
Quote:
Warlord (volcano, quake, barrage ML, fire control, deathstrike head): 900

You and your friends play very old rules
They dropped the price of a Warlord down to 750 Points during the Titan Legion era
and the points for a Battlegroup(3 Warlords) is 1500
Though a Battlegroup is a bit cheesy in a 3K battle

Quote:
I think that if I take the IG artillery co and the Warlord titan then should the titan have something other than the barrage missile launcher and deathstrike head as IG has the barrages covered? Or would an IG heavy or tac co be better and keep the Warlord armed as it is? Or are the warhounds the best choice anyway?

A Artillery Co. is very vulnerable to Jetbike CC attacks
so you need some units to protect them
or you donate them and kill those Jetbikes during advance


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:20 pm 
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ulric wrote:
Have to correct me a bit during SM/TL we played(and play) that Jumppacks can pin Skimmers
but after NETEPIC rules they can´t


We use SM/TL. But you say jump packs can pin skimmers in standard 2nd ed?

ulric wrote:
They dropped the price of a Warlord down to 750 Points during the Titan Legion era
and the points for a Battlegroup(3 Warlords) is 1500


I knew about the battlegroup but not the single titan. Which rulebook is that in? I have Titan Legions but only a few White Dwarfs from the era so I may have missed it. The only cards for Warlords I have are from the original space marine.

ulric wrote:
A Artillery Co. is very vulnerable to Jetbike CC attacks
so you need some units to protect them
or you donate them and kill those Jetbikes during advance


That's what the hydra detachment was for.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Quote:
I knew about the battlegroup but not the single titan. Which rulebook is that in? I have Titan Legions but only a few White Dwarfs from the era so I may have missed it. The only cards for Warlords I have are from the original space marine.


You are correct. While the group was 1500 points (suggesting they should be worth 750), the cost for a single warlord remained at 900.


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Quote:
We use SM/TL. But you say jump packs can pin skimmers in standard 2nd ed?

If I am right it was not forbidden but not anywhere in the rules
we played it cause we said jumppack can reach skimmers even if they sikmm above the ground

Quote:
You are correct. While the group was 1500 points (suggesting they should be worth 750), the cost for a single warlord remained at 900.

Quote:
I knew about the battlegroup but not the single titan. Which rulebook is that in? I have Titan Legions but only a few White Dwarfs from the era so I may have missed it. The only cards for Warlords I have are from the original space marine.

If remember there was card for a single Warlord Titan in the Titan Legions boxed set

Quote:
That's what the hydra detachment was for

good choice but one may not be enough


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine (2nd ed Epic) How to deal with Eldar?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:50 pm 
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deacon wrote:
You are correct. While the group was 1500 points (suggesting they should be worth 750), the cost for a single warlord remained at 900.


I was considering a warlord battlegroup in my first game, being essentially 400 points cheaper each. That's a 1200pt saving, but I thought it would be a bit of a dick move to play on a new player, but seeing as he now seems to know what he's doing and is choosing specialised eldar armies that require specific units and tactics to beat I'm not so worried about playing fair next time. When virtually your entire army can make popup attacks and can't normally be pinned in CC then the gloves have to come off I think. Still, I think it would be more satisfying to win with a good choice of varied units rather than just a bunch of cheap massively powerful ones.

ulric wrote:
If remember there was card for a single Warlord Titan in the Titan Legions boxed set


I don't have one and I'm almost certain I haven't lost any of the cards. It usually mentions PV changes in the text somewhere. Tempests went from 300 to 500 per detachment in the Renegades rules book and it was mentioned there. I'll have a look again but I'm sure I have no cards with Warlords at 750. Was it maybe in a White Dwarf?

ulric wrote:
If I am right it was not forbidden but not anywhere in the rules
we played it cause we said jumppack can reach skimmers even if they sikmm above the ground.


I see what you mean, according to the rules jump pack infantry are essentially skimmers, barring the ability to make a popup attack and infantry can normally pin vehicles. You could probably make a good argument for it but having looked it up the RAW say only skimmers can pin skimmers and jump packs are listed as jump packs, not skimmers. I'll give it some discussion with my opponent, we're ok with houserules if they make sense.


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