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Marine Bikes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17894		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Hi All,

Thought I'd put this in its own thread and canvas opinions.  So, as quick comparisons (and noting that comparing different armies is fraught with danger  :)  )

Marines - CAF 2, Morale 2, 150 for 5
CSMs - CAF 2, Morale 4, 100 for 5
Imperial Bikes - CAF 2, Morale 5, 125 for 5
Raveners - CAF 3, No Morale, 200 for 5 (only 20cm move and Instinctive)
Jetbikes - CAF 3, Morale 3, 200 for 5 (35cm move and Skimmer)
Guild Biker - CAF 4, Morale 2, 200 for 7 (include the Guildmaster for simplicity)
Ork Bike - CAF 3, Morale 4, 100 for 5 (Ork issues)

So, if we ignore army differences (and leave out the Orks), it would seem to me that:

- the Squats cost needs to go up
- CSMs are fine, but company would need to get cheaper
- Raveners should be cheaper

If CSMs and Marines should be the same, then just change CSMs stats to same as Marines.

Thoughts?
Author:  adam77 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:38 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Why is the Squat CAF higher than all the other races? What about reducing them to 3+?
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
History as much as anything, though I think they work reasonably well in balance with the rest of the army.  I feel the suggestion of changing detachment cost rather than playing around with stats is a better idea for Squats at this late stage.

However, the question is actually about the two marines.  I'd contend that the Astartes version is about right as far as points cost for stats.  If the CAF goes up to 3 as some suggest then a cost increase is warranted to both detachment and importantly IMO, company.  I'd guess 200/550 would be about right.  Personally, I'd much prefer the cheaper company.

Second order question is then what to do about CSM bikes.  Cost for stats is arguably too low for the detachment, but the company is clearly misscosted currently.  I can't see why the CSM bikes shouldn't mirror the Loyalist ones for both stats and costs.
Author:  Warhead [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Yes lets talk about history shall we...


Marines - CAF 3, Morale 2, 150 for 5
CSMs - CAF 3, Morale 2, 150 for 5
Imperial Bikes - CAF 3, Morale 4, 100 for 5
Raveners - CAF 3, No Morale, 200 for 5 (only 20cm move and Instinctive) (Wasn't invented yet, so it's immune).
Jetbikes - CAF 3, Morale 3, 200 for 5 (35cm move and Skimmer)
Guild Biker - CAF 4, Morale 2, 200 for 7 (include the Guildmaster for simplicity)
Ork Bike - CAF 3, Morale 4, 100 for 5 (Ork issues)

This is what it used to be and there was no reason to change it. It had been mangled with and butchered and needs to be brought back to this. In fact it was only last year we managed to get the Eldar Jetbikes fixed as they had been effected too.
Author:  scream [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:00 am ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Quote: (zap123 @ Feb. 11 2010, 00:58 )

Hi All,

Thought I'd put this in its own thread and canvas opinions.  So, as quick comparisons (and noting that comparing different armies is fraught with danger  :)  )

Marines - CAF 2, Morale 2, 150 for 5
CSMs - CAF 2, Morale 4, 100 for 5
Imperial Bikes - CAF 2, Morale 5, 125 for 5
Raveners - CAF 3, No Morale, 200 for 5 (only 20cm move and Instinctive)
Jetbikes - CAF 3, Morale 3, 200 for 5 (35cm move and Skimmer)
Guild Biker - CAF 4, Morale 2, 200 for 7 (include the Guildmaster for simplicity)
Ork Bike - CAF 3, Morale 4, 100 for 5 (Ork issues)

So, if we ignore army differences (and leave out the Orks), it would seem to me that:

- the Squats cost needs to go up
- CSMs are fine, but company would need to get cheaper
- Raveners should be cheaper

If CSMs and Marines should be the same, then just change CSMs stats to same as Marines.

Thoughts?

Caution, Planetary Defense Force Imperial Bikes have a 5+ morale, standard Imperial Bikes have a 4+ morale (at least in Codex 5.2).

I'd say:

- Marines - CAF 2, CAF 3 Morale 2, 150 for 5
- CSMs - CAF 2, CAF 3 Morale 42, 100 150 for 5
- Imperial Bikes - CAF 2, Morale 4, 125 for 5
- PDF Imperial Bikes - CAF 2, Morale 5, 125 for 5
- Raveners - CAF 3, No Morale, 200 for 5 (only 20cm move and Instinctive)
- Jetbikes - CAF 3, Morale 3, 200 for 5 (35cm move and Skimmer)
- Guild Biker - CAF 4, Morale 2, 200225 OR 250 for 7+1 Guildmaster
- Ork Bike - CAF 3, Morale 4, 100 for 5 (Ork issues)
- Ork MotoNobz - CAF 5, Morale - 200 for 5 (Ork issues)

Question: does anybody has thought about giving the tunneler ability to raveners and place the detachment @250 points ? Off course, this may start a new discussion thread and may bring new questions/problems.

@Warhead: CAF 3 for poor imperial bikes ? Are you sure ?
Author:  Warhead [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Yup, old rules (I wont say which ones in case I get it wrong again  :sulk: ) had the Imperial Bikes up at +3 which is odd. I would be happy enough at +2 but then why take 16x Bikes when you can have 32x Cavalry with the same Caf.

Please also to note that Imperial Bikes and PDF Bikes have the Independent ability so will route if they fail a morale roll IF they are out of command. I guess, just like the Orks that' that is the reason they WERE so cheap. So no need to hike the cost to 125 points.

Quote: 

- CSMs - CAF 2, CAF 3 Morale 4, 100 150 for 5


You mean Morale 2, right?
Author:  scream [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Quote: (Warhead @ Feb. 11 2010, 19:12 )

You mean Morale 2, right?

Yes, I have corrected this error and another one (pdf bikes morale).

Rough Riders have a +3 caf but they can not charge as far away as bikes. When you see a RR detachment in your enemy deployment zone, you know it won't have reach your artillery before turn 3 ;)
Author:  Warhead [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Oops, forgot that was one of my houserules. I had reduced my own IG Cav to +2 with a +1 to Caf if they engage on charge orders. My bad.
Author:  ulric [ Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Marine Bikes
Quote: 

I would be happy enough at +2 but then why take 16x Bikes when you can have 32x Cavalry with the same Caf.  

The bikes are faster, if I am right
Roughriders move 20cm
Bikes 30cm
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