Tactical Command
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Snap Fire
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=17831		 Page 1 of 5
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Ok, quite simple. Just let me know what you think of the Snap Fire rule for all units. I'm not talking about specialist units like AA/Flak units or with the special ability but the ability for all units on First Fire to fire in the movement phase. Do you use it in your games? Please also include your reasons for or against this rule.

Oh, and for all you outraged EA players out there. What? Can't you take a joke...  :laugh:

NetEpic players should vote either yes or no.You'll get skelfs sitting on the fence.
Author:  yak52 [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Always use the snap fire rule but dont always like it :)

Like when deploying thunderhawks filled with expensive veterans!
Author:  scream [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Whooooooooo super interesting poll  :grin:

Let's start a poll for Fall Back Orders: Do you like them or not, should the fall back order be removed from the game ?
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Heeey, it's Scream! You took your time buddy. Ok, it's not scientific of mathematically logical or probably sound  :oo:  but still it's worth gathering peoples thoughts. Snap Fire was a small special rule for SOME units that was later expanded into a grand idea that doesn't work. Fall Back is a working rule that is core to the game, not the same thing and I'm not just picking apart the stuff I don't like. I seriously think this Snap Fire rule doesn't work or this wouldn't be here. Now, if you had said why are the Squats so tough now when before they were quite pants I may have listened. Hey, you play Squats doncha?  :whistle: How's that working for yah? Balanced enough for yah? :rock: (Ok, ok, cheap shot, as cheap as your's anyway. I actually think the Squats needed the help, ok?) Oh, and I'm not proposing something new I'm proposing something that worked and had been working since SM2 with all the original play testing and such that goes with it. Snap Fire for all doesn't work as a rule and too much has been sacrificed to force it to work which it still doesn't. It's ruining the dynamic of the game.

@ yak52: I killed a Thunderhawk full of Death Wing in my last game using Snap Fire but even though it worked for me I do not think it's a good rule. Flyers vs. Snap Fire from all First Fire units means lots of dead flyers. I don't tend to take Flyers due to the Snap Fire for all units rule. So good point, I had forgotten that one.
Author:  scream [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
With the 25cm penalty when shooting fliers at high altitude, -1 to-hit for non AA units, only units with 360° fire arc can shoot at them. Add the -1 to be hit when flier tris to land, it will be more difficult.

When playing fliers, it's quite always a bad idea to try flying over your enemy during first turn when he has some AA units. Usually, I try to kill them with artillery/long shot weapons during first turn before sending Thunderhawks/bombers deep in the enemy lines.

Off course, if you're playing a CC army and your opponent a FF army (IG for example) and there's no covers to hide, it will be an impossible mission, even more if your opponent only stay in his deployment zone with all units in FF => boring game. You can stay in your deployment zone too, out of range his army range and wait until he moves.
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
:) I know, I know, that is all true but it only takes one lucky hit with a Snap Fire unit to bring a Flyer down. So who needs specialised (expensive) AA units now? Load up with cheap 5+ -1TSM ranged stuff with a) turrets or b) Infantry 360 degree fire. AA units made Obsolete due to Snap Fire For All. Yet another problem caused, are you seeing what am saying?

Quote: 

Off course, if you're playing a CC army and your opponent a FF army (IG for example) and there's no covers to hide, it will be an impossible mission, even more if your opponent only stay in his deployment zone with all units in FF => boring game. You can stay in your deployment zone too, out of range his army range and wait until he moves.


That just reinforces my point. Boring game is boring and the cause?.. Yup, Snap Fire for all.  :oops:
Author:  scream [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
No, the problem is the lack of cover. Try playing on a table with a lot of forests/buildings, with only few lines of view and you'll see your FF opponent being really confused.

In standard games (no special ally like Tyranids + Squats for example) with standard terrains, Snap Fire work well.
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
The reason I would disagree regards the problem being cover is that I played in a table crammed with cover.




This pic is from another battle but the board is exactly the same. See, lots of cover.

The Thunderhawk came into range and LOS of my Silver Towers trying to get behind my Warp Palace, ten attacks later one dead ThunderHawk and four dead Death Wing. Snap Fire rules.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
I voted yes !  We've used Snap Fire since SM1.  It's really taken from the "Opportunity Fire" rules from game companies like AH, SPI, etc. ...   Use it ... like it ...  :cool:  Hey !!  BTW what are the stats on that Pepsi can in the pics ?  :oh:  And are they different for Diet, Diet/Caffenine Free, etc. ?   :laugh:
Author:  scream [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Quote: (Warhead @ Feb. 02 2010, 17:20 )

The Thunderhawk came into range and LOS of my Silver Towers trying to get behind my Warp Palace, ten attacks later one dead ThunderHawk and four dead Death Wing. Snap Fire rules.

This was a good idea...just like if you charge a Blood raged khorne berserker detachment with tactical IG infantry :sulk:
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
:laugh:

Yeah, I guess not. You'll have to wait until TheDracon answers his reasons for that one.

@L4: I see the tactical potential of the rule I just don't beleive it works as is and costs too much in changes to other rules to include it.
Author:  ulric [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
I voted against snap fire
but I/we still use snap fire from AA-units like in SM/TL

1. point
Even with this its hard(enough)  to act with flyers
dont forget Inf. on FF gives you a good air cover zone with 100cm diameter
if using heavy troops(Ig heavies,exarch, dark reaper ect)
With the normal flyer rules you cant shoot in FF(except bombs)
so you opponent will always get his chance to shoot them down, if deployed well
this should flow into point costs too

2.point
Moving in netepic (except CC units) after the 1st turn is risky
since most games end in turn 2-4
with all units allowded to shoot at moving units
movement is even worse
Maybe some defensive players will do no movement at all

best regards

ulric
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:05 am ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
Quote: (Warhead @ Feb. 02 2010, 18:52 )

:laugh:



@L4: I see the tactical potential of the rule I just don't beleive it works as is and costs too much in changes to other rules to include it.

DWWFY ...  :)  :cool:
Author:  Warhead [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
It's not just about personal preference for me L4, I think the rule is broken.

@Ulric: Good points, of course we still use Snap Fire for units with the special ability like AA units etc. (I've edited the top post to make that more clear).


The new group I'm in still use First Fire for all and it is a royal pain in the ass. Changing their minds will be a struggle because this rule is established and then if I find any more players I'll need to go through the same dung again.
Author:  scream [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Snap Fire
But Snap Fire is not always sucessfull, the -1 to-hit penalty + lost of an activation (units on FF can Snap Fire only if their order was not revealed and does not count as a standard activation), if your opponent uses a lot of Snap Fire, at a moment, he will have used all his activations and you'll surely have enough activations left to activate your units and your opponent will not be able to activate anymore.
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