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Greater Daemons in close combat.
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Author:  Warhead [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
1) Ok, I was using Chaos today using the Gold rules. Now, I'm not sure if this was present in NetEpic v5 or whatever, I can't be arsed checking but I noticed that Greater Daemons can't use Chaos Reward Cards to negate being hit/killed in close combat. Is that right? Unless it failed armour save it can't use its cards? Why have a close combat army that is giving away its advantage when it gets into close combat? This sucks arse! Angron broken, Bloodthurster Broken! Etc. You take on a ton of firepower spending Chaos Cards just getting near the enemy, crossing the table slowly and then when you get into combat you can't use your cards? Stick that. Yet more stuff that isn't any good anymore, why am I not surprised. :rock:

2) Snap Shot vs. Terror. Who cares! The target can't fire at a unit engaging it in close combat if it causes Terror, but everything else in LOS can. This is broken. I've brought this up before but obviously didn't understand just how broken the Snap Fire Rule has made things. Oh, loo, yet another difficulty to engaging units in close combat. As if it wasn't hard enough. Now the rules have toppled the scales so that close combat armies aren't worth the bother. I know, lets all just play Imperial Guard and we can bore each other to death. Wow, it's as if the rules were made by and solely for Marine Players... or worse, Eldar or Squat players... yuck!  :p

So my choice is what, to pick stuff for my Chaos/Tyranid army that has mostly ranged attacks and sit on the back line like an Imperial Player with my thumb up my deployment zone?  :(

3) Also, what is the ruling on units charged that are on First Fire. Can they only fire as a Snap Fire as they are being charged or can they wait and fire at their attackers in the First Fire phase as they used to be able to?

4) Hypnotic Gaze Chaos Reward Card. If you are being close combated by an enemy stand and you successfully use this card on the enemy stand but it isn't touching any other unit other than yours and it has charge orders. Can you elect for it to do nothing at all, as in not close combat anything?

Hopefully someone here can help with the last two requested clarifications and earn my gratitude. The other stuff, um, well, all I can say is, thanks for being present while I vent my vitriol again. I guess I should also warn you all that I will hopefully be playing more games of Epic and that when I find something I don't like or think is wrong then I'll be happy to let you all know about it.  :whistle:
Author:  ulric [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:31 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Quote: 

So my choice is what, to pick stuff for my Chaos/Tyranid army that has mostly ranged attacks and sit on the back line like an Imperial Player with my thumb up my deployment zone?

to avoid such a situation, we just let AA-units snap fire during movement
I dont like this "overwatch" netepic version  :shutup:

Sorry I cant help you with yout chaos stuff  :D
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Well, I'm just glad to know there are some sane Epic players out there who are right thinking just like me.  :Ikonforums:

Of course, it might be nice if fans like us got more than a token say in this Fan Based Net adventure...  :shutup:  :laugh:
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
1) Where does it say you cant use cards against close combat hits?  It says you cant use them in close combat against attacks that are psychic in nature....normal CC is fine.  You just have to ditch one card for each "wounding hit".  Rant averted  :smile:

2) Yeah, we've encountered this one before and it is a bit problematic.  It does kind of make sense as it is currently though, and it's not like GDs are easy to kill.  

Note Snap Fire is at -1, and the whole detachment loses its' order after doing it, even if only some stands can snap fire, so there are significant penalties to taking the shot.  We've found that Snap Fire isn't used very often because of this...generally only to protect really high value targets and by units getting overrun.

Any suggestions on how to help Terror?    

3) Units being charged (by a non terror causing unit) can take a snap fire shot at the unit charging them (to try and help CC armies be more effective and so not everyone has to play IG  :glare: ).  P11 in the V5 book, P19 in the Gold version.

4)Yup, you can tell them to play tiddly winks instead of attacking.

Hope this helps ease your mind a bit.   :smile:  

Looking forward to some more of your cool batreps!
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
1) The way it is written "fails an armour save" specifically means players are reading it as "must be an attack that makes an armour save or you can not use cards." The original old rules say HIT not armour save. This is the source of the problem that has lead to this. In fact someone even suggested if you get hit by an attack that means you can't make the armour save. I.e. -6TSM on a 2+ = 7+ to save which is imposable so no armour save = no cards. IF IT IS IN ERROR THEN THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM THAT NEEDS FIXED ON GOLD PDQ!

2) Kill Snap Fire it's causing rippling problems all over and few use it anyway so why not.I'm sure someone I could probably name will later post and say they use it to great effect but I'll let them prove me right.

3) Bloody Snap Fire, Grrrrr!

4) Vindicated!  :grin:

Bat Reps? Damn, and I thought you just loved me for my quirky sense of humour.  :laugh: I'll get to work on it. Thanks for the reply.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
I killed a Great Deamon of Khorne with Njal Storm Caller, Space Wolf Ruin Priest in an Epic game a long time ago ...  :cool:  :laugh: Just thought I'd mention that ...  :laugh:  :D
Author:  ulric [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Quote: 

Note Snap Fire is at -1, and the whole detachment loses its' order after doing it, even if only some stands can snap fire, so there are significant penalties to taking the shot.  We've found that Snap Fire isn't used very often because of this...generally only to protect really high value targets and by units getting overrun.


yes, the -1 to-hit-penalty decreases the effect of"snap fire"
but I am not a fan at all
that would force me to either fire even more shoots with a to-hit-penalty(which happens often due to cover)
or to give up such an advantage

The rule isnt sensless
but not very good for the game dynamic IMO

Quote: 

Any suggestions on how to help Terror?

Hmm it is logical that not attacked units may shoot normal at them
but that nullify the effect of terror.....call huston?

Is it the same terror as the terror from the space wolfes blod claws?
I thought it only forces the attacked unit to do a morale check
which is still a good ability
Author:  ulric [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Quote: 

I killed a Great Deamon of Khorne with Njal Storm Caller, Space Wolf Ruin Priest in an Epic game a long time ago ...     Just thought I'd mention that


I love the space wolfes characters
most of the time they look googd
but sometimes they can do something powerfull
I can remember nice situations with them :laugh:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Ragnar, Ulrik & Njal                                                                                                                                                                                          
Author:  ulric [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Nice ones
I love the triple charge effect and the +1 iniative
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Yeah ... they are some badd Mofos !!!  :laugh:  :cool:
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Njal kicks some serious buttage, or he did, probably another thing that bland-ified on v5. (Feel the love people).  :p

@L4, I shot down a Thunderhawk with a full detachment of Death Wing Terminators yesterday with a pair of Tzeentch Silver Towers using Snap Fire, so I guess Chaos is laughing now... (Yup, even after this I still wouldn't keep the Snap Fire for all rules).

Blood Claws used to cause FEAR: Morale roll vs. charge in close combat or go on Fall Back Orders. Since lessened for the Blood Claws on v5 to being Fall Back orders for a turn only. *sigh!* I guess players just can't handle close combat and need to change stuff to make it easier for them.  :whistle:

Terror: Morale roll vs. attacking these in close combat, fail means you find something else less suicidal to do with yourself. Target of a charge by this unit can't Snap Fire at it (used to be couldn't First Fire but hey). Now, totally ruined by introducing Snap Fire for all.

And yet another point about Snap Fire for all, if you will please oblige...

5) Point Defence: These started as generic weapons (Bolters/Shurikens etc) for models and worked as normal weapons with range and no special always First Fire rule. Then v4 came and we had Point Defence getting rid of lots of semi-useless and potentially annoying 6+ rolls and making close combat attackers the only units to be fired on. This remained true on v5 but now if I am to believe what I have been told we have Point Defence with a range of 15cm again and the same lousy rolling of the dice that consumes time with D6 rolling for 6+ hits but with the added can always Snap Fire!!!  We had gotten rid of all those mostly pointless rolls (which I think it was a great idea for the game) and now they are back? Aw, C'mon guys! This Snap Fire rule causes more trouble throughout the game and gives hardly anything worth while back.  

Cue, horde of Sheeple with their misguided counter opinion. Just call me the diplomat.  :laugh:
Author:  Legion 4 [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Quote: (Warhead @ Feb. 01 2010, 17:42 )

Njal kicks some serious buttage, or he did, probably another thing that bland-ified on v5. (Feel the love people).  :p

@L4, I shot down a Thunderhawk with a full detachment of Death Wing Terminators yesterday with a pair of Tzeentch Silver Towers using Snap Fire, so I guess Chaos is laughing now... (Yup, even after this I still wouldn't keep the Snap Fire for all rules).

Indeed ...  :glare:  :laugh:  :cool:
Author:  ulric [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
Quote: 

Blood Claws used to cause FEAR: Morale roll vs. charge in close combat or go on Fall Back Orders. Since lessened for the Blood Claws on v5 to being Fall Back orders for a turn only. *sigh!* I guess players just can't handle close combat and need to change stuff to make it easier for them.  

Terror: Morale roll vs. attacking these in close combat, fail means you find something else less suicidal to do with yourself. Target of a charge by this unit can't Snap Fire at it (used to be couldn't First Fire but hey). Now, totally ruined by introducing Snap Fire for all.  


Ah now its clear for me
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Greater Daemons in close combat.
I think the thing I keep reminding myself of is that NetEpic is a different game to SM2.  Sure, came from the same place and lots and lots of stuff is the same, but lots has changed too.  I loved SM2, but I really like the vast majority of the NetEpic changes; they have made a good game much better.  Sure, there are some rules that do irk me a little (PD snap firing at a unit charging someone else is one of mine) but I figure it's a package deal.  So even though I don't like something if I can see the validity of the rule and it is balanced and fair....I suck it up.  

If a rule is bad/broken/unfair or just poorly worded we should fix it though.

It's also interesting that you contend CC armies are worse off.  In my experience things like alternating activation, fog of war and the snap fire change have made CC armies much more viable.
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