Seeing it appears a decent proxy might be relatively close to inception, is it time to give Chaos a Defiler?  Do we actually need all 4 variants even (Desecrator, Debaser, Deceiver, Slaughterfiend)?

If yes to both, I'd assume support card for the specific Chaos Marine Legion only?  No clue as to stats....

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Yes, we should include it in the lists.
No (but I already know that some players will say yes ).

Hre is a base profile for the Defiler we discussed on Epic-fr:

Name: Defiler detachment
Type: Support card
Contains: 3 defilers
Break Point: 2
Morale: 1
VP: 2
Cost: 150

Move:15cm
Save:4+
CAF: +5
Weapon: canon Defiler: 50cm/1/5+/-2
Special: triple move on charge order

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Everything that is in the 40K universe has the automatic right to be represented in the Epic universe... without discussion. What stats to use should be the only question asked.

If there is a model there should be stats. I would not presume to know each players NEED for these items, so long as there is choice in the list then it can only benefit the game IMO.

Variant stats for the same units are weapon choice related normally. If I had things my way you would have variant weapon choices for more Epic units so you can pick and chose what weapon fits you require... as per the 40K fluff. This is something we have been trying in the last two years.

Predator Annihilator, Destructor
Dreadnoughts, War Walkers, Sentinels etc
Vypers, Attack Bikes, Buggies and Wartracks
Infantry Heavy Weapon units...

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

A problem with the various model variant is that they come from E:40K range. Each blister contained so many different weapons that it's quite hard to complete a detachment when a blister contained 1 weapon variant. Just take the E:40K predator blister:

- you have 3 side weapons variants: bolters, lasgun, melta gun
- you have 2 top turrets variants: single barrel, dual barrel

With 1 blister, you can build 6 predator variants but only 1 of each type. So you'll need 3 blisters to complete a single detachment. As those blisters are not available anymore, it becomes quite hard to get the detachment of the predator variant you want unless you have some time to collect them and enough money.

Contrary to 40K, NetEpic contains units from the first Edition, no minis where removed from the army lists. When GW decide to remove a mini the new edition codex, NetEpic keep it. When GW add a new unit, we add it in the army list. I'm quite sure we'll soon have some NetEpic profiles for the new SHT StormLord and the Land Raider Redeemer.

The core player is happy with a really really long unit stats pages, new players may be affraid.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

So Defiler yes.  Variants under debate.  Are the stats/costs proposed by Scream representative/acceptable?  According to the fluff I've read, this is a CSM support vehicle...so is the detachment limited to CSM companies?  (my current 40K knowledge is veeerry tiny )

Having rules for every possible weapons combination for every vehicle and infantry stand is the path of madness down which NE once ventured.  The effort to save it was large and cost many lives (well...players).

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Contrary to 40K, NetEpic contains units from the first Edition, no minis where removed from the army lists. When GW decide to remove a mini the new edition codex, NetEpic keep it. When GW add a new unit, we add it in the army list. I'm quite sure we'll soon have some NetEpic profiles for the new SHT StormLord and the Land Raider Redeemer.

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

This was something I had been working on but haven't tried yet. I agree with the three models per detachment and 1+ Morale. I think it might be a nice idea to have them as Daemon Engines. Not sure if that will work. I feel they are more Tank than Dreadnought size for pinning but should have the walker ability... obviously. I had also toyed with making them CSM Undivided only but... I don't know. I know it's a bit over powered for v5 but wanted to throw in my own ideas for you to sift through for anything salvageable.

Chaos Marine Defiler

15cm, 4+ all round, +3 Caf, (Possessed Daemon Engine, Turret)

Defiler Cannon* 50cm x1 4+ -3 (*Damages buildings)

(Defiler Cannon + Any 2 arm weapons below, may not chose the same weapon twice)

Twin Lascannons 75cm x1 4+ -2
Reaper Cannon 50cm x2 5+ -1
Havoc Missile  50cm Temp 5+ -1 (6cm Temp, Artillery, Ignore cover
Heavy Flamer Flame Temp - 5+ -1 (Ignore cover, Fire*)
Tentacle things  -  -  -  -  +3 Caf, infantry may not overwhelm in close combat.

I've included the rules we use for Daemon Engines too.

Chaos Possessed Praetorian/Titan/Daemon Engines
Khorne Daemon Engine
Berserk: 3+ Psychic save and may not use First Fire orders. May only use direct fire for artillery. If Chaos is winning add +1D6 Caf, +1 armour save and to hit rolls.

Slaanesh Daemon Engine
Glamour of Slaanesh: 4+ Negate (Psychic Save) and  –1 to be hit by ranged attacks except attacks that use a template. Artillery barrages that scatter add +3cm to scatter result.

Tzeentch Daemon Engine
Warp Focus: Add one Chaos Reward card to your Chaos Reward Card deck to be used as normal. Tzeentch Daemon Engine Titans gain Wings and may ignore terrain modifiers while moving... but that is all. (No +25cm or minus to hit as with flyers or floaters etc)

Nurgle Daemon Engine
Living Machine: You may now play the Effects of Chaos Reward Cards on Nurgle Daemon Engines as with mortal minions. You may not use Chaos Reward Cards to negate damage caused however. Nurgle Titan/Praetorians also gain a –1 Penetrate modifier to all damage rolls.

Undivided Daemon Engine
Gift of Chaos: Inflict a –1 to the morale of any enemy model and a +1 to the morale of any Undivided unit within 25cm of this Daemon Engine. This is not cumulative with other units with the same skill that overlap.

The price for this lot?..

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

They look ok, but I think we'd need fixed configurations with fixed points.  This is just basically a tank sized daemon engine (according to fluff they be possessed, so DE it is), so titan type weapon selection isn't appropriate for mine.

I like the first part of your Nurgle DE reward.  Always was underwhelmed by the current one.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

I agree, one profile for each chaos divinity + 1 generic profile would be interesting. But avoid the weapon selection, defiler is smaller than a titan

About your profile proposition, I'd say:

- making it a Possessed Daemon Engine is fine
- Defiler Cannon: -3 ? Really ? This seems a bit overpowerd for a so small cannon. I don't have the feeling it's better than a bone-crusha cannon. 4+/- 2 would be slighty enough.

I based the following stats on your propositions that were interesting. Chaos powers are the standard ones (no need to create/modify them).

Chaos Marine Defiler
15cm, 4+ all around, +3 Caf, (Possessed Daemon Engine)
Common weapon: Defiler Cannon 50cm x1 4+ -2

Khorne:
- Tentacle things  -  -  -  -  +3 Caf
- Heavy Flamer Flame Temp - 5+ -1 (Ignore cover, Fire*)
- Berserk:May not have First Fire Orders. If Chaos is winning: +1D6 CAF, +1 Armor Save & To-Hit rolls.

Tzeentch:
- Twin Lascannons 75cm x1 4+ -2
- Havoc Missile  50cm Temp 5+ -1 (6cm Temp, Artillery, Ignore cover)
- Warp Focus: +1 Chaos Reward Card at the start of the game.

Slaanesh:
- Reaper Cannon 50cm x2 5+ -1
- Havoc Missile  50cm Temp 5+ -1 (6cm Temp, Artillery, Ignore cover)
- Glamour of Slaanesh ( -1 to hit modified, 4+ Psychic save)

Nurgle:
- Reaper Cannon 50cm x2 5+ -1
- Tentacle things  -  -  -  -  +3 Caf
- Never outnumbered in Close Combat.

Undivided
- Twin Lascannons 75cm x1 4+ -2
- Tentacle things  -  -  -  -  +3 Caf


Maybe the undivided could cost 150/175 and chaos divinity versions 200/250 ?

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

Thanks Zap. Yeah some of the Powers just got forgotten in the old SM days. The Titan thing can be dropped, no drama.

I think I like Screams idea of certain weapons for different powers... at least I'm not against the notion. The -3 is probably excessive but I saw the Defiler Cannon  as more of a siege weapon... like the Vindicator Cannon. Perhaps -2TSM Ignore cover?

I understand the cost cut for Chaos Undivided as it's a bit much to expect new Chaos Divinity Daemon Engine rules... and the Undivided one sucks IMO. However, in this instance... what does Nurgle get?

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

The standard nurgle daemon engin power described in Chaos Codex page 7, but I do not remember how the power "Never outnumbered in Close Combat." is called ? In my proposed profies, the tentacle thing do not grant this ability to Khorne Defiler, only the Nurgle one get it.

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Fair players live longer
Epic40k.fr Techpriest

I'm not doing very well today, my head is swimming and a bit hot. (I should probably just go to bed). I didn't spot the "Overwhelm" (my word) special rule... and to be honest I had forgotten it for Nurgle... I've been using the Living Machine Nurgle Daemon Engine instead... I don't much like the other one.

Still, I like the look of your proposal... What?... I am not delirious.  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

Ok, add specific points to each of the variants and I'll draw them up for inclusion.  Anyone going to get a chance to playtest one or more of the variants?  I have a Nurgle army ready for a game so I'll try that one if my opponents' ok with it.

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy

Well, I was going to try my Orks... or Necron (bad idea) on my next game at Games Workshop on the 9th Apr. I suppose I can give one lot of Defilers a try. Urgh, the Chaos list... oh dear. I hope you appreciate the sacrifice here...  

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My head is full of War...

[img]http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk120/Warhead40k/Tyranid%20Swarm/DSC02262.jpg[/img]

OK, I propose to accept as designed.  Detachment of 3, Morale 1, Points cost:

Khorne 150
Tzeentch 250
Slaanesh 200
Nurgle 150
Undivided 200 (they are better than Predators...hard to make them less than 200)

I also like the idea of singles.  Perhaps for Khorne a single Defiler that acts as a Daemon Prince (like a mini-me LoB).  Happy to accept the idea of vehicle class for pinning, walker class for terrain.  Alternative is they are knight class?

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Fire bad, tree pretty - Buffy