Tactical Command
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Shooting into CC
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14534
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Author:  Pettan [ Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

The rule Cold blooded makes it possible for some armies to fire into CC.

In the last battle we had a titan that charged some troopstands. Other troops that wanted to fire against were non-coodblooded. Can they fire at the "Bigger that a cityblock" titan then he is fighting troops that hardly reach his toenails?

Special Rule: Cold Blooded
Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids may fire into Close Combat since they do not mind slaying their own troops. If you fire into Close Combat and miss your target, make another To-Hit roll against one of your own troops. Template weapons are used normally, making separate To-Hit rolls against every single unit under the template, friend or foe.

Another note I found.

1) Assign Attack Dice: Each die may be given a separate target, so you can spread your fire around or concentrate on one target. Units with multiple weapons and weapons with multiple dice may spread the dice among different targets. You may not assign dice to models that are pinned in Close Combat.

This makes me think that we could fire against the titan since he was not pinned. If two titans where slugging it out I shoudlnt be able to  fire unless I was coldblooded. Am I understand it correctly?

/Pete




Author:  Warhead [ Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

The rule Cold blooded makes it possible for some armies to fire into CC.

In the last battle we had a titan that charged some troopstands. Other troops that wanted to fire against were non-coodblooded. Can they fire at the "Bigger that a cityblock" titan then he is fighting troops that hardly reach his toenails?

Quote:


Special Rule: Cold Blooded
Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids may fire into Close Combat since they do not mind slaying their own troops. If you fire into Close Combat and miss your target, make another To-Hit roll against one of your own troops. Template weapons are used normally, making separate To-Hit rolls against every single unit under the template, friend or foe.

Yes, you can fire on enemy units that are in close combat if they aren't pinned by the close combat. Even if you aren't Cold Blooded. Happy hunting!  :cool:




Author:  Pettan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:09 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Ohh my god. Neither me nor my opponents knew this. And I guess in the end its our own fault.

It is not that clear in the rules books though. Shouldn't this be stated in the note about how cold blooded really works. I mean that everyone actually can shoot at the higher class in CC?

/Peter

Author:  Warhead [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:46 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

You may be better referring to Pinning and the Firing Section of the Combat rules. I think there is a mention of what you can fire on regards pinning IIRC. I hope.

Just wait until you try reading about Skimmers and pinning and firing into close combat against skimmers. That's when your brain starts to melt. :))

Author:  Pettan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Just wait until you try reading about Skimmers and pinning and firing into close combat against skimmers. That's when your brain starts to melt. :))

Found this...
Special Rule: Skimmer Pinning Class
Skimmers cannot be pinned by units that are not themselves
skimmers and at least of the same pinning class, and may move out of
Close Combat on their next move (even if their next move is in the same
turn). However, if the skimmer decides to stay it is considered pinned
for that turn ONLY. That means opponents may not be able to fire at the
Skimmer since it is in Close Combat and considered pinned for that turn.
If the skimmer survives combat it may move normally next turn.

Sooo.. If a gyrocopter (a vehicle) is charged by a troop stand and chooses to stay then noone can fire at the gyrocopter since he is pinned for that turn.
Could be considered strange.. Dunno.
My brain is overheated anyways.

/Pete - cooling off




Author:  Warhead [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Nope! The Gyrocopter is a bigger scale therefore it is still a target no matter what it chooses to do.

Author:  Pettan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

So you mean that the pinning class counts since he choose to not use his skimming ability and run away? This would be more realistic. There are Superheavy skimmers aswell. ;)

/P

Author:  Pettan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

So are you allowed to fire a template weapon into CC if you only cover the enemies that are bigger class than yours? (again of you only use NON-coldblooded creatures?)


Special Rule: Cold Blooded
Chaos, Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids may fire into Close Combat since they do not mind slaying their own troops. If you fire into Close Combat and miss your target, make another To-Hit roll against one of your own troops. Template weapons are used normally, making separate To-Hit rolls against every single unit under the template, friend or foe.

Another thing should be that if you fire at a bigger model engaged with a smaller this all should mean that you do not roll if you hit your own troops if you miss your intended target..

/P-man




Author:  Warhead [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

By Pettan | Posted on 12 Jan. 2009, 05:02
So you mean that the pinning class counts since he choose to not use his skimming ability and run away? This would be more realistic. There are Superheavy skimmers aswell. ;)

The size class is always an issue and always applies no matter if the target is or isn't a skimmer.

Ok, your Gyrocopters are attacked by a Titan. Normally a Titan would pin a vehicle. However, since the Titan isn't a Skimmer and Gyrocopters are... then the Gyrocopters may move out of the close combat and complete their move as normal. OR if they wish and are insane they could chose to stay and fight against the Titan in close combat.

Only another skimmer can pin a skimmer but they still follow the Pinning Class rules.


Firing barrages into close combat for non-cold blooded troops...

No, you can not fit a template over only the enemy troops that are engaged in close combat with your own men without breaking the rules. However, if you fire indirectly at something near the melee you can hope it scatters and hits his, but this is risky. (Not so much if your troops are in cover and his are not but there is a risk.)


If you were Cold Blooded (I think Inquisitors should be allowed "Cold Blooded" to order units within formation to fire on their own troops... just a thought.) then I would say you must target the middle of the melee (between both his and your models engaged and roll to see who is hit as normal.)
The Cold Blooded direct fire into a melee I have never used. I try not to shoot at my troops while they are getting stuck in as they tend to get killed and that's a bad thing...

Author:  Pettan [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Thanks for pointing out the inns and outs. It will take some doing but I think I will be able to implement these things.

If you were Cold Blooded (I think Inquisitors should be allowed "Cold Blooded" to order units within formation to fire on their own troops... just a thought.) then I would say you must target the middle of the melee (between both his and your models engaged and roll to see who is hit as normal.)

We are in agreement here but in the end it might be up to your opponent and the type of game your group plays..

/P

Author:  zap123 [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Here is the Errata for the current rules that should clear this up:

Firing Ranged Weapons
Select a detachment to fire and follow the steps below. Models in base contact with enemy units may fire out of the Close Combat engagement if they are 2 or more pinning classes larger than the largest enemy unit they are in base contact with. Once the detachments fire has been resolved, your opponent selects a detachment and follows the same procedure. Players continue to alternate until all units eligible to fire in the current segment have done so.
1) Assign Attack Dice: Each die may be given a separate target, so you can spread your fire around or concentrate on one target. Units with multiple weapons and weapons with multiple dice may spread the dice among different targets. You may assign dice to targets that are engaged in Close Combat if they are 2 or more pinning classes larger than the largest unit they are in contact with, however if a unit chooses to do so the Cold Blooded special rule will apply.
2) Check Range: You can’t pre-measure so check anything in doubt. If the target is out of range, you miss. All measurements are made from the center of the firing model to the center of the target model.
3) Roll To-Hit: Roll the dice, and you hit on a modified score equal to or over the shooter's To-Hit value. A roll of one always misses regardless of modifiers.
4) Resolve Damage: See The Effects of Damage for details on what happens, as the rest of this section is concerned with special rules. In general, armour saves and special abilities that affect damage must be used immediately, since when a casualty is removed from the tabletop it has no further effect on the game. Yes, this means that units can be killed before they are activated to fire.

I made the errata on the Draft Gold version of the Core Rules, so unfortunately I can't post an errata'd version of the rules.

Author:  Pettan [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

Its magical. Here we have it. Everyone celebrate!!  :D

/P-man

Author:  Warhead [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Shooting into CC

units may fire out of the Close Combat engagement if they are 2 or more pinning classes larger

You may assign dice to targets that are engaged in Close Combat if they are 2 or more pinning classes larger than the largest unit they are in contact with,

I'm gona' have a hard time remembering this one during a game. I'm rubbish at gear changing from old to new... as you have all noted from other discussions on the threads... I'm a bit slow sometimes.

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