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Land Raider and Predator variants
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14320		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:39 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
I had reason to go through the Astartes list and look at a couple of the specific chapters.  I looked at the various Land Raider and Predator variants and to my eye it looks like they are a) invariably not as good as the basic variants from a strictly "effectiveness in the game" standpoint, while b) the same cost or more expensive.

- I think there is some argument for the LR Crusader to be the same price as standard, but I can't see why it should be more expensive.
- The Baal really looks like it should be cheaper than a standard Pred to me.
- Jaghati Khan gets a lot more CAF and some useful weapons, but the template weapon works against the higher CAF.  Not sure about this one.
- Vulkan is probably the closest to ok, and even it looks like it needs a discount.  

Anyone out there tried them?
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:24 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
Yeah, I agree that some costs could use a bit of looking at but what do you have in mind? How much of what I have done here do you want to know?..

The Land Raider is way too expensive as it is IMHO. The Crusader could do with being the same cost as the LR as what is gained in one stat is lost in another making it an even trade-off.

Jaghati Khan gets a lot more CAF and some useful weapons, but the template weapon works against the higher CAF.  Not sure about this one.

The Flame Template to me makes this Pred an Assault Vehicle. Added to this is the Multi Melta allowing it to hit Hard Armoured targets just like the Land Speeder. Doesn't this justify the high Caf? Being a Hit and Run army I think this unit fits well and has been unchanged in stats or cost for my list.

I have kept the cost of the Baal and the Vulkan as standard but tweaked the stats slightly. Details on request. So it looks like you may be right about the cost here too.
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
No, the higher CAF is fine. I mean they work against each other.  The high CAF means it should be less afraid of CC, but it cant use the template weapon effectively if it does go into CC.  I guess it probably would try to stay unengaged so my point is ignorable  :upside: .  To my eye it really should get a discount though.

I don't think there's any wriggle room on the standard LR.  They are clearly superior to the other "600 for 10" Imperial tanks, and as I recall the vote to increase their costs back in the day was about as close to unanimous as any.  Some form of minor tweak could be in order I guess.  I do think the Crusader variant should be the same cost as the basic or if anything, cheaper.
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
No, the higher CAF is fine. I mean they work against each other.  The high CAF means it should be less afraid of CC, but it cant use the template weapon effectively if it does go into CC.  I guess it probably would try to stay unengaged so my point is ignorable   .  To my eye it really should get a discount though.

Close combat for most tanks is to be avoided when possible. I tend to think of the higher Caf on Assault Tanks as more defensive than offensive anyway. A discount is always nice even if I don't often play Space Marines.

Obviously this can only be my opinion but I wouldn't have said the LR stats were all that great. Oh, as an APC they are great but as a MBT they are only ok. After playing a few games we started to avoid using LR's even when they were 200 points per squad.
I changed the stats two (?) years ago and made the to hit 4+ (bearing in mind that it is two twin linked Lasercannon on each sponson) making it worth the points cost. It also meant they are competitive with some of the new exotic IG variants too (Vanquisher, Destroyer etc). Otherwise for 250 points I would rather pay for something/s else.
Author:  scream [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
LR Crusader & standards could have the same cost (Obviously, I thought they already had the same cost :p) if the new Redemeer LR is added to NE, its cost could be aligned with the 2 others (250 for 3).

Jaghati Khan predators do not seems to be overcosterd and its weaponry is really interesting fot the White Scars (short range but effective weapons). On another side, The Predator Vulkan for the salamanders is quite bad, no CAF and not interesting for 200 points.

I like the E:40K predators and LR minis, and even if they are not that great on battlefield, I continue using them.
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Dec 22, 2008 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
I have been use the E40K Land Raiders for Crusaders and they do look good.  :)
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:55 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
I don't really like seeing 4+ to hit on Imperial stuff.  I was thinking of perhaps your "no modifier for side armour" or perhaps giving the LR a Storm/Heavy Bolter stat line as well as the PD.

Looking at the Crusader, it gains some speed and a lot of PD at the cost of weaker armour and shorter range weapons.  For mine it looks like a 200 per detachment tank to me, even with the higher speed + Transport.  I would like to hear how they perform in battle though.  That speed does mean they can get Marines across the half way line first turn and the big PD would help protect against counter charges...so maybe they are worth 250?  I can't imagine they are worth the current 300 though.

Should we propose a drop to the cost of the Vulkan then?

Oh, BTW my Marines are Dark Angels so this is all an academic discussion.  I guess I could milti-purpose them as a Salamander army too though   :blues:
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
I don't really like seeing 4+ to hit on Imperial stuff.  I was thinking of perhaps your "no modifier for side armour" or perhaps giving the LR a Storm/Heavy Bolter stat line as well as the PD.

It's all down to preference. I can see your point with the 4+ but it just made sense with Twin linked weapons. However it was also changed in response to complaints from the our combined arms Imperial player that most of his units hit on a 5+ while I was mostly playing Eldar at the time and kicking his Imperial ass left right and centre.  :vD

The "no modifier for side armour" works well. An extra weapon is no different than the 4+ to hit though... better than 4+ actually as you can target more things but games wise it's worse as you have to roll more dice.
Author:  scream [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
LR Crusader is worth the  250 points, no more.

I'm not sure about giving LR an extra side armor, compared to predators, they are better so... but it's an interesting option :)

For the Vulkan Predator, maybe giving it a decent CAF could keep the cost at 200 points ?  (CAF +2) ? So we could keep all the predators detachments at the same cost :)
Author:  Warhead [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
:) I like Screams idea best so far.

All LR variants at 250 points. Stats change for regular LR for "no modifier for side armour"

All Pred variants 200 points. Stats change for Vulkan variant increase Caf by +2.

I like symmetry like this. Easy to remember and makes sense.
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Land Raider and Predator variants
Yup, I like Scream's scheme too(sorry...felt impelled to do it).  I'll see if the boss is taking late changes :)
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