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Madollin
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:44 pm 
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All,

Was reviewing the very helpful forums here yesterday- excellent resource for a very good game.

I have a couple of questions based on games with a local opponent and would appreciate some guidance please.

First on the HQ targetting rules-

Do HQ units give each other targetting protection ? Position was that he had some Nobz bikes and two were the only target my Overlords could see, and he insisted that I could only target the first as the first gave targetting protection to the other.

Also do the Squat HQ units within Squat infantry detachments get a separate activation? Is the HQ part of the detachment or effectively a separate detachment (6 activations or 3 ?)  

Also if a Squat HQ within a detachment shoots (say in 1st fire phase or in snap fire) does this count as the detachment fired or just the HQ ? I guess that this depends on the answer to the one above.

Finally if you win the initiative and reserve a unit to move last, can you do so after passing your units. Situation was that we had initiative and wanted to keep a detachment to move last. But having fewer detachments (and many on first fire) we quickly ran out of stuff to move before we  were into passing to preserve snap fire options. Should we have had to move all units before passing (i.e. before the opposition had run out of moves) or be able to keep the unit to the end to enable the winner of the iniative to have last move ? It seemed a contradiction in the rules

Hoping that these haven't been asked before and that you can help resolve them.

Also if anyone is London-ish based, we play a little in South east London (sydenham), if there are any local folk about who fancy a game please get in touch.

rgds

Michael
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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:14 pm 
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Hi Madollin,

Do HQ units give each other targetting protection ? Position was that he had some Nobz bikes and two were the only target my Overlords could see, and he insisted that I could only target the first as the first gave targetting protection to the other.

Nope! No way no how. Your HQ's were of the same size class so the Targeting HQ rule automatically does not apply amongst them so both or either could be targeted (so long as LOS isn't in doubt). The guy is just being awkward... he must be a joy a minuet.  :))
However, Ork Nobs in front of a Warlord for example would protect the Warlord from being targeted as he is not the same type of stand... being a Warlord and not a Nob. Great!.. now I'm confused.

Also do the Squat HQ units within Squat infantry detachments get a separate activation? Is the HQ part of the detachment or effectively a separate detachment (6 activations or 3 ?)  
+
Also if a Squat HQ within a detachment shoots (say in 1st fire phase or in snap fire) does this count as the detachment fired or just the HQ ? I guess that this depends on the answer to the one above

They are HQ unit's with regards to orders so automatically receive First Fire and Charge Orders and so get to activate separately. This also answers the other question as both the HQ and Detachment are firing separately. Note: The HQ does not require to remain in formation either IIRC. Use that as you will.

Finally if you win the initiative and reserve a unit to move last, can you do so after passing your units. Situation was that we had initiative and wanted to keep a detachment to move last. But having fewer detachments (and many on first fire) we quickly ran out of stuff to move before we  were into passing to preserve snap fire options. Should we have had to move all units before passing (i.e. before the opposition had run out of moves) or be able to keep the unit to the end to enable the winner of the iniative to have last move ? It seemed a contradiction in the rules

My lot (local group of powergamers and rules lawyers... Eh, I mean players) don't play it this way. if you pass you pass and can't un-pass. Too few activations? Tough, it's more race specific than army choice specific anyway. Winning initiative only allows you to say who goes first each phase not retain a last minuet move. But some must play things different so if you work it that way and you all feel it works then go with it.

Hope this helps some and if I've gotten anything wrong I'm sure someone will set us both to rights soon enough.

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Pettan
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:53 pm 
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HQ means that the unit gets HQ targeting protection.

Special Ability: Headquarters (HQ)
These units represent a small number of important people, and as long as they stay close to something their size they receive some protection from being fired at. An HQ unit may not be fired at unless it is the closest valid target of their pinning class, or is more than 10 cm from things in their pinning class. This protection applies to template weapons as well – the template may not cover the HQ unit unless it meets one of the two requirements. However, buildings and transports are not protected – you may shoot at the building or transport normally, hoping to bring it down and kill the HQ inside.


Command means that the unit can charge and shoot in FF or advance.

Special Ability: Command
Command units represent leaders and highly-trained people in your army and have abilities beyond those of regular troops. Command units are not given orders, as they may always move double their normal movement (as though on Charge Orders) and fire in the First Fire Segment (as per First Fire Orders). However, Command units who are in or have initiated Close Combat may not shoot, and Command units that Snap Fire may not later move.

Something very important here is that some HQ are command and some are NOT. Vehicles can be COMMAND but does not in general have the HQ protection.

The hearthguard in a squat detachment is a HQ but NOT a command. So he acts like the rest of the stunties in his squad.

The warlord is a command unit so he can shoot after he has charged. He is however in the same squad as the combat squad so he will be activated along with the rest of his combat squad.

The warrior brotherhood looks like:
Warlord & 9 Combat stands
Hearthguard stand & Thunderer Detachment
Hearthguard stand & Berserker Detachment

And this should be 3 Activations. Atleast that is how I play with my squats. I do feel that it might be better to have the COMMAND unit as its own activation but this cant be with how the brotherhood is constructed for now. I would like to know if the Warlord is in the same squad as the combat squad or as a own unit in the old armycards. I can check myself in a few weeks when I plan to kick Gaskrans ass to kingdom-come.

If you buy rhinos you can acticate them separately but the combat squad can not use rhinos since they are 10 with the hearthguard. so they need 5 rhinos. Since you activate one card at a time  (3 rhinos) this means that you would divide the combat squad in 2 parts.

If a marine player would use a Great Company then you have 3 activations. a Veteran Bike Company means 4.

The good thing about few activations if that your squads are harder to break. The downside is that the opponent can dictate alot of what is happening in the battle. My own experience is that when is comes to CC then the player with more activations can almost allways act after the other player. This can for example be very troublesome for orcs.

//P-man




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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 9:52 pm 
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He is however in the same squad as the combat squad so he will be activated along with the rest of his combat squad.

Nothing in the rules you have quoted here or that I can find in the rules says this is so. I may have missed something though? If not then it's down to personal interpratation? Perhaps HQ units are supposed to activate and move as other units included in the detachment that they are part of. However...
I do feel that it might be better to have the COMMAND unit as its own activation but this cant be with how the brotherhood is constructed for now
Squat Warlord states Command ability which is a core rule so should be followed but you don't because you believe it should be considered one activation with the rest of the detachment...

To my mind if this is correct then it shows that something has been missed when the HQ/Command distinction was created in v5. (What!?. It could happen.) Or that HQ/Command units are supposed to be regarded as separate activations.

HQ's were originally and automatically considered Command units in v4 and SM...

From the original v4 NetEpic (Just for refrence)

Special Rule: Targeting a Command (HQ) Unit
Command units cannot be targeted unless they are the closest unit of the same class within range. Classes of units are described under pinning rules in the close combat section. An exception to the above rule is command models in buildings. Buildings are obvious targets and may be targeted normally, regardless of the presence of a command model (Hiding command stands in buildings by themselves is an invitation to an attack.). Another exception is a barrage template aimed at a closer “normal“ stand but which covers a command stand as well.

Example: A command infantry stand in a group of other troop stands cannot be targeted unless it was the closest within range. A command infantry stand standing among Titans or super heavy vehicles stands out like sore thumb, so it can be targeted.

I would like to know if the Warlord is in the same squad as the combat squad or as a own unit in the old armycards. I can check myself in a few weeks when I plan to kick Gaskrans ass to kingdom-come.
If it lands over this way I'll post it back for free.  :)) Good luck.




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Pettan
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:50 pm 
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Well. HQ:s and Command are Not the same thing now in V5 or the gold rules either. Check the different army lists what is stated after each unit. Some are HQ, some are HQ and Command. The thing is that you can always target a Command unless it also is a HQ. For example you can target the landraider Command unit in a landraider company. It is however not a HQ.... So.. This means that a HQ that is hiding in his Rhino loses his HQ protection cause you can allways shoot his rhino which is only a command..

He is however in the same squad as the combat squad so he will be activated along with the rest of his combat squad.


Nothing in the rules you have quoted here or that I can find in the rules says this is so. I may have missed something though? If not then it's down to personal interpratation? Perhaps HQ units are supposed to activate and move as other units included in the detachment that they are part of. However...

It would be that the units in the same detachmants are named in the same row in the army book.

Example: Warrior Detachment - Hearthguard stand & 9 Combat stands

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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:05 am 
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I know the v5 update makes the HQ/Command distinction. I just put in the v4 for refrence as it shows where the rule for v5 has developed from.

It would be that the units in the same detachmants are named in the same row in the army book.

Example: Warrior Detachment - Hearthguard stand & 9 Combat stands

Em, isn't that a bit obscure and tenuous to say the least? Just because there written on the same line?.. Is this a new written rule I've missed? I dunno' I have my doubts about the written on the same line thing.

Isn't it the usual defence against change here that the change may be too complicated and hard to remember blah, blah, etc and so on yet here we are with a new(ish) rule that has been developed and causes some confusion to other rules (Targeting and Activations). It's a puzzler right enough.

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zap123
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:24 am 
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Quote: (Madollin @ 15 Dec. 2008, 17:44 )

All,

Was reviewing the very helpful forums here yesterday- excellent resource for a very good game.

I have a couple of questions based on games with a local opponent and would appreciate some guidance please.

First on the HQ targetting rules-

Do HQ units give each other targetting protection ? Position was that he had some Nobz bikes and two were the only target my Overlords could see, and he insisted that I could only target the first as the first gave targetting protection to the other.

Also do the Squat HQ units within Squat infantry detachments get a separate activation? Is the HQ part of the detachment or effectively a separate detachment (6 activations or 3 ?)  

Also if a Squat HQ within a detachment shoots (say in 1st fire phase or in snap fire) does this count as the detachment fired or just the HQ ? I guess that this depends on the answer to the one above.

Finally if you win the initiative and reserve a unit to move last, can you do so after passing your units. Situation was that we had initiative and wanted to keep a detachment to move last. But having fewer detachments (and many on first fire) we quickly ran out of stuff to move before we  were into passing to preserve snap fire options. Should we have had to move all units before passing (i.e. before the opposition had run out of moves) or be able to keep the unit to the end to enable the winner of the iniative to have last move ? It seemed a contradiction in the rules

Hoping that these haven't been asked before and that you can help resolve them.

Also if anyone is London-ish based, we play a little in South east London (sydenham), if there are any local folk about who fancy a game please get in touch.

rgds

Michael

1/ Well, the answer here is yes and no.  If it was one detachment then no, but the closest would need to be targetted first if they were from different units.

2/ I agree that these particular HQ units are part of the detachment so must be activated at the same time.  (e.g. only 3 activations for a Squat Brotherhood).  This is one of the weaknesses of the Squats...buggar all activations.  The unit still get the benefit of HQ or Command as appropriate.  (so a unit with Command that is in a detachment that charged could still shoot for example.)

3/ We don't allow passing.  You move units 'til you have no more.




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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:51 am 
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2/ I agree that these particular HQ units are part of the detachment so must be activated at the same time.  (e.g. only 3 activations for a Squat Brotherhood).  This is one of the weaknesses of the Squats...buggar all activations.  The unit still get the benefit of HQ or Command as appropriate.  (so a unit with Command that is in a detachment that charged could still shoot for example.)

I'll accept this for Hearthguard as I have since found it in the Ork + Squat Warlords rule book for SM that they were not a Command unit with regards to separate orders. However the Warlord IS and always has been and so should still get his separate activation as before especially since he is still regarded a COMMAND unit and using the new rule has separate orders. Unless the cost of all Company Cards and Detachments that include a Warlord have already been decreased as a result of the drop in effectiveness? (Used to be a Warlord but now relegated as Jo Blogs third trooper from the left but still has a big gun, Caf and a save but hey he's just one of the regular guys now.) Are you sure this new(ish) rule works?.. It's making me irritable.

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zap123
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:05 pm 
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To quote the original SM2 Squat Warrior Brotherhood card:

"A Squat Warrior Brotherhood consists of 1 Warrior unit of 1 Warlord stand and 9 combat squads, 1 Thunderer unit of 1 Hearthguard stand and 5 Heavy squads, and 1 Berserker unit of 1 Heathguard and 5 attack squads."

So I'm afraid he never was seperate....sorry.  Of course, if you guys have always played him as a seperate unit I can see little harm in it.




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Warhead
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Well that clearly restates the problem but for me not the answer. How can you just assume from that, that the Warlord is... but isn't a command stand? (which he so is) and so are you saying the Squat Warlord does not get orders unlike all other units with the Command ability?
It's a contradiction that has no written ruling. (That I have found or had presented here yet) It developed on v5 when the Command/HQ distinction was created. Perhaps it was missed and needs sorting? *Shrug*

Is The Warlord a commander?.. Yes
Does he get separate orders?.. I would say yes but others are saying no.
If not why not?.. Over to you.
If yes then how do the Warriors activate at the same time? I would say they activate separately and have separate orders but must unfortunately stay in formation (see below). Others would say they all activate together and would ignore that he is a Command stand for some unwritten reason I don't yet understand.

What I noticed from the SM Cards... see the funny thing is the Detachment card states one Hearthguard and nine Combat squads while the Company card does replace this Hearthguard with a Warlord AND it also states on the back that this Warlord must stay within formation to the Warrior detachment so at least that part I got wrong (may move out of formation) but the Orders thing is not mentioned other than what is stated in the stats that the Warlord is a commander. Which means he gets Charge and First Fire orders (or the v5 Command equivalent) unlike the Warriors who accompany him so it may be reasonable that he activates separately.

Edit: Sorry for being a pain but hurry up and convince me already... or bow to my masterful wisdom and relentless chatter. :tongue:




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Pettan
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:45 pm 
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I see and understand your points Warhead. One other example in the squat list is the guildmaster bike. In his case he is a HQ and a command unit - exactly the same as the warlord.
I dont know of any other army that works in this way but this has been the way that the squat army has been built the last 20 or so years.
As far from where im sitting the units (guildmaster & warlord) are very much apart of that detachment but he and he alone can shoot in FF if he moved.
To get a warlord that can move on his own you have to buy a termite company card or a Grand Warlord as a special card.

I personally have played squats for many  many years and I have never left that these rules were strange. Not all armies are built in the same way. These things have made it hard for my army to hold objectives since their infantry are few detachments.

Try to see that as extra flavour  :D

//P-man

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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:26 pm 
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I personally have played squats for many  many years and I have never left that these rules were strange. Not all armies are built in the same way. These things have made it hard for my army to hold objectives since their infantry are few detachments.


Sorry, not having a go and I do defer to your experience with Squats but in my opinion this is important and more an irksome problem with v5 than with Squats list. Command is a Core Rule and a Core Rule should always take precedence over all other rules when their is a conflict, as it should be IMO. This is what we have always done here in these circumstances. Otherwise it might create contradictions with other rules.

To get a warlord that can move on his own you have to buy a termite company card or a Grand Warlord as a special card.
Yup, I got that wrong so I accept this, no problems. It can't move away from warriors as it must stay in formation as it says on the old SM card (Does it say this anywhere else? Might be an idea to add it somewhere. Errata?)

As far from where im sitting the units (guildmaster & warlord) are very much apart of that detachment but he and he alone can shoot in FF if he moved.
You allow the Warlord and the Guildmaster to fire even when they have moved ( I take this to be using v5 rules)? Isn't this practically the same thing as what I am suggesting?

Question: When playing Squats in SM (Maybe v4) days did you allow your Warlord the First Fire Charge orders of a Command stand?

Again apologies if this grates on nerves etc. I'm just looking for understanding like everyone else. Hope you don't mind or think any less of me for it.   :devil:

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Pettan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:55 pm 
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You allow the Warlord and the Guildmaster to fire even when they have moved ( I take this to be using v5 rules)? Isn't this practically the same thing as what I am suggesting?

Question: When playing Squats in SM (Maybe v4) days did you allow your Warlord the First Fire Charge orders of a Command stand?


Well, yes I do. This is according to the rules V5 and Gold rules and this has been the case from when epic came out in the 80:s. In the good ole days a HQ unit could charge and shoot in FF. You were if im not mistaken talking about moving out of coherency. This can never be done voluntarily.

/P




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Warhead
 Post subject: Questions
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:17 pm 
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You were if im not mistaken talking about moving out of coherency

Gahh! Nope! We moved past that after post #10 and I stated I had got it wrong again in #12.  :rock: Remember, I found the rule obscurely printed on the back of a squat company card. Wow, talk about covert rules.  :))

It was more about the Warlord getting his own activation. As he gets his own orders. Because he's a Command unit. However, board now. I have arbitrarily decided to agree that I am right. Isn't that nice of me.   :tongue:  If you want to prove me wrong why not read the flaming thing!  :whistle:




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Pettan
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:33 pm 
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It was more about the Warlord getting his own activation. As he gets his own orders. Because he's a Command unit. However, board now. I have arbitrarily decided to agree that I am right. Isn't that nice of me.   :tongue:  If you want to prove me wrong why not read the flaming thing!  :whistle:


I guess that you can do it like this. Move the infantry 10 cm. Move the warlord up to 20 (just let him stay within 6cm of one of the inf.
Fire with the warlord in the FF
Fire with the inf in Advance fire.

Good luck with your warlord  :vD

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