I'm fine with how demons work in NE now. I found the E:A demon summoning rules (and how demons were treated generally back then) irritating during my foray with Armageddon.
What advantages would introducing them bring to NetEpic?
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| Daemon Summoning http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=14165 |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Has anyone any thoughts on Daemon Summoning in NetEpic? My initial idea is to introduce an option to summon Daemon Packs for Cultist Armies and Chaos Marine Armies. Daemon Horde?.. wouldn't they all be tied to their Greater Daemons and need to be already present or should they also be allowed to summon Daemons... Should Greater Daemons be allowed to be summoned also?!. I'm thinking of them as a kind of optional reserve as Teleport is used for other races. Should there be an additional cost in points and/or VP for Summoning units? The easy part is the actual summoning rule. I was thinking of using the rules for Teleport but only a Chaos Character of the appropriate Chaos Power can initiate a summoning and the Daemons must materialise within 15cm? When should they be allowed to summon?.. Should it be as a units activation in the combat phase or something else? If this is too powerful an ability then perhaps instability should be considered for summoned Daemons as the link to the material world is still tenuous. I'm not sure how to do Instability in NetEpic though. Please feel free to give thoughts and suggestions or opinions (good or bad) It's only an errant thought after all. Besides if it can't be used for official NetEpic business then it may help me iron out glitches for future campaigns. |
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| Author: | zap123 [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
I'm fine with how demons work in NE now. I found the E:A demon summoning rules (and how demons were treated generally back then) irritating during my foray with Armageddon. What advantages would introducing them bring to NetEpic? |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Well, it's always been a fact of fluff in 40K, books and background that Daemons are/or can be summoned. However, this to my knowledge has never been the case with Epic until EA. (I don't like the way this works in EA either.) Now, I like SM and NetEpic and I don't want to change the entire thing... but perhaps an optional rule should allowed for those that do wish to summon Daemons as a tactical advantage at a suitable price. Also, I am looking to use something like this in my campaign games but keep hitting snags and would appreciate any help. As I said it would be like Teleport used by Terminators and so would provide Chaos players another dimension of play that I believe they should have access to because of the fluff. I don't think Fluff should be ignored even for game mechanics if at all possible. |
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| Author: | duz.holger [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
how about no further prize rise but a randomizer like a d6 for a successive summon 1 the demon is killed (i know they can't but in game they can't be retried there are out for good 2 not in this game (for campaign purpose) 3 and 4 no summon 5 and 6 successive summoning rest is teleport the ordinary psyker rules no summoning near liberiens and the like you need somebody whit a telephone to the warp (psyker of some sort) fell free to comment |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Well on the price I was thinking of an indirect cost. Say the cost of including a Mark of Chaos for a HQ unit. That way you can pick what unit can summon by giving it the Mark of Chaos and not just Psykers thus allowing Khorne units to summon too. You also get a cool Chaos Mark on a HQ unit... so, bonus! The random thing feels a bit orky but it has potential. The way I see it the Daemons yet to be summoned are like in Reserve. So don't Reserved units have to roll 4+ to enter play? (Or am I getting mixed up with my campaign rules and NetEpic?) So this may work. The summon fail/killed is ok too as Teleporting units also run a risk of being killed IIRC. P.s. Glad you aren't dead Duz, well done ol' boy. 
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| Author: | zap123 [ Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
I'm sort of struggling with how you would make it balanced and at the same time make anyone want to use it.  If you look across the NE lists most of the big "keep it off until I'm ready to deploy" units got changed.  T-Hawks and Vampires and the like all start on board.  There are still the odd bits and pieces (Grey Knights, Swooping Hawks, Monoliths) and the Drop Pods option (Marines/Chaos Marines/Tyranids).  In both cases the penalty for using them is quite high, so a Teleporting GD would also need to face similar penalties....I'd think Deep Strike rather than Teleport and +100 points as a minimum....might need to be higher given their size/pinning class and Command. Don't want to make it too Orky, but maybe a specific unit (Psyker, Dark Apostle types) needs to roll a 3+ before can be summoned too? Still wouldn't be happy to include in the existing lists.  Perhaps as a special ability for a variant list with listed penalties would be ok? |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Perhaps a limiter on Summoning Daemon Packs only, no Summoning Greater Daemons. I may try a simple version on my next battle report. If nothing else it could make things exciting. +100 points? (For Summoning and Chaos Mark or just Summoning?) Ouch but probably fair. I'll use that and see how it goes, better to high initially and then modify. What about VP? I take it that the extra +1 VP is just added to the units total? |
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| Author: | zap123 [ Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
+100 was for a greater demon and that was possibly a little light on given how scary some of them could be (Mortarian turning up in the middle of the Guards' deployment zone first turn springs to mind). Still, Tyranids pay 100 for Mycetic Spores for roughly the same effect, so it's probably in the ballpark. Final whack depends on how hard they are to call onto the board I suppose. |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Ah, there has slight misunderstanding then I think. You pay for the Mark of Chaos for a Champion or other suitable unit as per normal (maybe at an increased cost) and you are allowed to summon a pack of Daemons during play as well as the normal Marks effects. During play the unit with the Mark may attempt to summon. This counts as an activation (the unit may not engage in close combat or fire but may still summon if he is engaged in close combat?) and happens at the end of the summoning units movement. Roll a 4+, if successful you may place one Daemon stand from the pack anywhere within 15cm? 25cm? of the unit with the Mark (See, the marked unit has to get across the table first. So that isn't like Teleport. Of course you could Mark a unit that Teleports...) You then follow the Teleport Deployment rules. Place one roll scatter place others in formation, in Close Combat if you wish... and maybe a D6 roll for each unit to see if they arrived safe. (That's the bit like Teleport) Anyway, you'll get the idea when you see the report. |
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| Author: | zap123 [ Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
So, if I understand, you a) pay for the Demon pack, b) have to pay for the corresponding mark, and c) get the benefit of the later and still are able to teleport said Demon pack on to the board for no extra deniro? The marked unit can charge and still summon? What orders do the summoned have? In some ways this is better than Teleport as it doesn't happen in compulsory movement. The 100+ thought still stands I think...100 for a normal Demon pack and more for a GD. If you make it count as an activation in the movement phase for a marked unit with First Fire orders that must forgo their shot to perform the summon you could reduce the cost (i.e so they cant charge forward 50cm then summon something another 25cm further forward). Looking forward to a battle report explaining all 
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| Author: | Warhead [ Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Yup, I think I explaned it better that time. Your own take on it throws up some serious problems that I'll need to think over. Looking forward to a battle report explaining all Me too, my head hurts! 
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| Author: | Warhead [ Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
SUMMONING Buy Daemon packs as you would normally. Almost every Chaos player does anyway. Buy a Mark of Chaos for the additional points cost and assign it to an appropriate stand. A Champion or other HQ unit. Marked unit can move as it normally does and gains all the benefits of the Mark. Additionally it may summon one pack (one pack only per battle) at the end of its movement activation. It may not summon if it was engaged by an enemy in close combat. After it has summoned it may not do nothing else that turn. No Psychic attack/defence and no firing. To summon roll a D6. On a 4+ the pack has been successfully called from the warp. Place one unit within 10cm? of the Marked unit. Roll to scatter this summoned unit and then place the rest of the pack within formation of the first, but no further than 15cm? from the summoning unit. (Ooo, it's getting messy   )The units summoned may be placed in close combat if within ranged and are assumed to have Advance Orders? (I would have preferred Charge but see your point of not extending the movement way beyond breaking point) Once summoned the pack acts as a normal detachment. I need to tidy this up and find a way for it to be clear but not as long. |
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| Author: | Dominic [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
Sorry folks, but I reckon demons are fine as they are. I'm already struggling with the advantages or otherwise of Demons in E:A and the complications of summoning. They work fine at present, rules are clear and when you start with em on the table the points are about right. (Having said that I've just taken a right kicking from a chaos trashing themed eldar army!) |
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| Author: | Warhead [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Daemon Summoning |
That's fine Dominic, I'm more looking for help to do this for my own campaign. By Warhead | Posted on 10 Dec. 2008, 19:33 Well, it's always been a fact of fluff in 40K, books and background that Daemons are/or can be summoned. However, this to my knowledge has never been the case with Epic until EA. (I don't like the way this works in EA either.) Now, I like SM and NetEpic and I don't want to change the entire thing... but perhaps an optional rule should allowed for those that do wish to summon Daemons as a tactical advantage at a suitable price. Also, I am looking to use something like this in my campaign games but keep hitting snags and would appreciate any help. I'm not sure if I would want Daemons being able to be summoned in a normal game either. Changing NetEpic is not really what I want to do here. I am asking if anyone here is interested to please help me out by thinking of a better way to do it or pointing out if what I have proposed wont work and why... You never know it may even give other players ideas for their own campaigns or games. Besides wouldn't it be nice to introduce an interesting option once in a while to the game (like in a campaign)? |
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