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How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=13785		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Brother-Captain Parzval [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Hi

I remember a tournament game I played a long time ago, where my very much "standard" type space marine army was crushed by an eldar player, who used an army consisting of just a huge number of tempests (with some filler infantry on the side maybe). Had I been a better player I would surely have been able to take advantage of the weaknesses of a tank-only army, but I didnt.

Anyway armies that are extreme in the way they are put together are annoying not only because they are hard to beat (and they probably arent really, if you are experienced enough), but more because they just look stupid. On one side we have a wellorganized and balanced force with infantry armor and artillery in suitable proportion, and on the other we have, well, 30 plastic land raiders (or something similar...). And chances are the firstmentioned army is fully painted in greatlooking camouflage, while the other is totally unpainted, making it even more annoying. An army could of course be considered "silly" in many other ways too...

So my question is, do you have any house rules or gentlemans agreements to stop stupid or boring armies in your respective gaming groups?  Do you have any similar experiences of horrible games?
Author:  Warhead [ Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:23 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
If your opponents army was unusual and you win, it was ok.

If his army was unusual and you lost then the little blighter has obviously abused the rules somehow.

Games mature as do the players. It goes in stages and develops as you get wise to the way your opponent plays. I guess tournament games throw up lots of different players so that sort of development can sometimes be missing unless you know your opponents,like the EA lads seem to.
Author:  Mark_Logue [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
I am happy to play against anything that can be made with the army lists.  I don't mind playing against all tank armies and the like so don't consider those sort of armies stupid.  I am sure not all battle have been between well balanced armies mixed just so with tanks, infantry and some heavy support.

If someone is playing with something all the time that totally kicks my armies but that I can't see a way of beating I will certainly suggest to them that they might want to try a different army to make games interesting again.

I like playing against different and challenging armies, which is good because it means pretty much all games are fun.
Author:  primarch [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Hi!

Having played epic for close to 20 years (by the way epic fans, epic will be 20 years old next year!), I've learned that "tricked out" armies usually get you one easy battle becuase the opponent is not prepared.

Of course, if you play enough you will find that you build very balanced armies that are capable of dealing with anything.

In the "old days", the eldar had all sorts of "cheese" like the army you mention. But you don't need a equally cheesy army to compete.

My challenge to opponents back in the day was that I could beat any cheese army with a "vanilla list".

Its not a question of being ultra talented or some tabletop genius.

All you need is to know your strengths and weaknesses as well as those of the army you face.

Eldar armies are heavy hitting and have very long range firepower. If you play their game (trading long range pot shots), you will lose.

The way to beat eldar is to close the gap. Eldar are vulnerable to what I call "baseline" attack.

What that means is to get your units into his deployment zone to tie him up while your remaining units close the gap.

To do this with Space Marines is easy. One detachment dropped via T-hawk or if you are feeling really nasty drop pods. Disruption is key.

IG an do it too via tunnelers or vultures.

Squats are the only army that CAN trade long range pot shots and win (quite easily too).

Orks have the most difficulty, but add a couple of dragstas and even they can overcome.

In netepic the more balanced you make your list (i.e your list has units to handle anything) the less important these cheesy lists are.

Primarch
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Amoung friends it depends on what sort of group you are. Highly competitive? Scheming over lists for weeks before play? Do whatever you can. Otherwise take a theme and go for it. Even better bring a bunch of possible armies and adapt your style on the fly in pre game discussions and observation :)
Author:  zap123 [ Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:32 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Among friends I think it only fair that if you are taking what you know is a cheddar army you warn your opponent beforehand.  I wont mind if I'm told in advance and might try somethig odd-ball myself.  I do get a twee cross if sometime drops it on me unexpectedly.  I've never bothered to try some of the archetypical cheese-fest armies...but almost all lists are capable of it. An all Tempest army is a long way from the worst I've seen.  If someone lobs up with a really unpleasant army you can always make them go to the trouble of setting up, and then just concede....they should get the message.   ???   Alternatively, just fight fire with fire...a PDF army with 6 Rough Rider companies should be able to deal with the Tempest horde quite nicely  :rock:
Author:  Brother-Captain Parzval [ Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Yes zap, thats probably the best way to do it...

And somehow I respect a certain kind of cheese army more than others. Infantry only, for instance, is totally cool as long as everything is well painted. If its an ork or IG army the painting effort alone is worth half a victory!
Author:  Warhead [ Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
I agree too with the one exception...

I think if someone let me set up and then conceded they would be the subject to a whole different type of battle report involving a hospital visit to extract the dice from his... nostrils as the end result.  :whistle:  Perhaps discussion before hand is the way to go however (as Zap suggested).
If however you try to disrespect someone in the way mentioned above then you had better be prepared to take what you get as a result. Could be messy and cause a split between gamers. (It does happen.) It's just a game for fun after all and nobody wants to start a ruckus.

Edit: Just a word of caution. Not meant argumentatively.
Author:  zap123 [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:11 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
I only ever did it once...honest. :oops:   The guy was a complete tosser and I was quite happy to never see him again.  In my defense, I didn't know exactly how bad the army was until he's put most of it on the table....Squat army with 3 Guild Biker brotherhoods in a 4K force...with the rest being basically Colossus or Overlords....not a single infantry stand.  I was ok when he started putting the second GBB on the table but when the third came out of the box I started to seeth...and hatched my cunning plan.   :devil:  :mad:

Interestingly we did sort things out (somewhat) and I did play a couple more games against him before he got posted to another city.
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Three Guild Bike Companies?.. What's so wrong with that for heavens sake?!.  :vD  Next you'll be having a go at people who try out eight batteries of Deathstrikes!..  :devil:  ...Not that I've ever tried this you understand...  :rock:

before he got posted to another city

?  :oo:  ? What?.. So in Brisbane they have very strict population controls and if they go over the number limit they send some worthy citizen elsewhere? That's just weird?..  :tongue:
Author:  scream [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
I would say that when a player starts fielding more than twice the same company/detachment, you can start worrying about his fairness  :evil:
Author:  Lion in the Stars [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
Someone got so offended by this squat that they stuffed him in a box and mailed him to Abu Dhabi?  

Oh, wait, that's where they send unwanted cute kittens.

I'd say it depends on what the unit being duplicated is:  3 formations of Fire Warriors or Assault Marines is a lot less cheesy than 5 units of Terminators, for example.
Author:  Warhead [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
For a 6000 point battle why not try Four Warlord Titan Battle Groups...
that way when you set up it doesn't take long to put them all away when your opponent bursts into tears and starts eating his own models.  :devil:

Lion in the Stars, why do they send cute kittens to Abu Dhabi? Or am I just being thick asking?.. (careful reply recommended).
Author:  zap123 [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
It is good that they put undesirables in a box and send them away from here!  Keeps the queues down  :vD .

I did play a guy who went TL and basically only had Titans on the board.  I didn't mind that.  It actually turned out ok as I was running IG and had a decent amount of titan killer gear.
Author:  Brother-Captain Parzval [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  How far until an armylist is considered abusive?
I love titans too, and they are sort of what the game is about, but I guess it would be nice if he'd added a couple warhounds for flanking moves ;-)

And as a matter of fact I find it more wierd that these days people present army lists on these boards that are supposed to be "Titan legion" armies, but dont include any titans! As EpicA has been scaled down a bit, titans become rarer, and this is not good for the game, IMO.
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