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Error in Squat army list?
Pettan
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:00 pm 
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Hello again. Hope you guys are not fed up with me yet. If you want I can shut up for awhile.

I found something that I do belive is an actual error in the army book. I will try to expalin what I mean.

Squat army list - VP:s for different cards.
                         
Air Attack Crops (3 units) BP: 2 cost: 700 VP:s 7
Goliath Superheavy Art Battery (3 units) BP:2 Cost 475 VP:s 6
Doomanvil Squadron (3 units) BP 2 Cost 1400 VP:s 14
Ironhammer Squadron (3units) BP: 2 Cost 250 VP:s 4

and so on.. there are many exampels.

To explain it abit better.

The Squat "ability" stubborn makes cards give more VP:s if they are broken.

Should a unit of 3 have a break point of 2 AND give higher VP:s = Only a loose loose situation for the squat player.

Should a unit of 3 have a break point of 2 and NOT give a higher VP:s = No benefit for squat player on the breakpoint and no benefit on VP:s.

Example. Air Attack Corps 3 units breakpoint 2 VP:s 7 (as in original rules from the good ole days)

Other example Ironhammer Squadron BP: 2 Cost 250 VP:s 4 Humm, only a loose loose situation.

How to solve this problem and to fix the errors in the army list.

When the card (company or Detachment) units are 3 let the breakpoint be 2. BUT have the VP:s Normal

Right now its a mixture of the two different systems that I explained.

Hope you guys understand me. Dont know if I do myself.

//Pete - signing off

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primarch
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:55 am 
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Hi!

I understand your points.

The reasoning for leaving them as is is balance. The squat army, like any army, must have some liability, disadvantage, like all armies (mobs for Orks, IG HQ structure, small fragile eldar units, etc).

In case of the squats, EVERYTHING yields a high VP yield, regardless if the breakpoint is better than standard or not.

The air corps is already a great unit, its only downside is the break point. A small price to pay. Same as other squat units.

Primarch

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Pettan
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:07 am 
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So do you think it is supposed to be like that?

Shouldnt the Doomanvil Squadron be worth 14*1.33=19 points then?

/Pete

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zap123
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:16 am 
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The Doomanvil squadron should really be treated like a Titan battlegroup where you get VPs for each model destroyed.

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Pettan
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Yes Zap, I agree. The breakpoint of 2 in the Doomanvil should be fixed to give VP:s like a titan group but the armylist is using two different ways of calculating the VP:s..

an example:

Land raider (3 units)squadron cost 300 breakpoint 2 VP:s 3

Ram squadron (3 units) cost 300 breakpoint 2 VP:s 4

I think: either make the landraiders be worth 4 or the rams be worth 3. The armylist should try to be consistent.

/Pete

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primarch
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:18 pm 
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(zap123 @ Apr. 15 2008,03:16)
QUOTE
The Doomanvil squadron should really be treated like a Titan battlegroup where you get VPs for each model destroyed.

Hi!

If it isn't like this that should be changed.

Should be for each model destroyed.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:19 pm 
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(Pettan @ Apr. 15 2008,12:23)
QUOTE
Yes Zap, I agree. The breakpoint of 2 in the Doomanvil should be fixed to give VP:s like a titan group but the armylist is using two different ways of calculating the VP:s..

an example:

Land raider (3 units)squadron cost 300 breakpoint 2 VP:s 3

Ram squadron (3 units) cost 300 breakpoint 2 VP:s 4

I think: either make the landraiders be worth 4 or the rams be worth 3. The armylist should try to be consistent.

/Pete

Hi!

I will change this to be 4Vp's each.

Consistency is good.  :)

Primarch

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Pettan
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:38 pm 
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Quoting Squat army list V5D final.
According to the rules Stubborn makes the VP:s be 33% more. But the following list states that a unit cost if 100 gives 2 VP:s. That is a contradiction. If 1.33 VP:s are rounded to 1.
Later in the list it is stated that 400 give 5 Vp:s (5.32) and I think this is correct.

Observation ballons cost 100 and is worth 2 Vp:s according to the armylist. They should be worth 1*1.33 =1.

Engineer Detachment
Expeditioner Detachment
Shortbeard Detachment - should all be worth 2. NOT 3 as stated.
Retributor Squadron - not 3 should be 4.
Thudd Gun Battery not 3. should be 2
Im telling ya, please look at the list for 5 minutes. You will go bananas.  :confuse:

As a final note. I might be wrong cause perhaps the designer thought that there should in MOST cases be an increase in VP:s eventhough it is 1.33 vp:s rounded to 2.

In the other armies 1.5 VP:s are 2..
Perhaps im being to mathematical. After all, its just a game.  :)

/P-man




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primarch
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:42 pm 
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(Pettan @ Apr. 15 2008,16:38)
QUOTE
Quoting Squat army list V5D final.
According to the rules Stubborn makes the VP:s be 33% more. But the following list states that a unit cost if 100 gives 2 VP:s. That is a contradiction. If 1.33 VP:s are rounded to 1.
Later in the list it is stated that 400 give 5 Vp:s (5.32) and I think this is correct.

Observation ballons cost 100 and is worth 2 Vp:s according to the armylist. They should be worth 1*1.33 =1.

Engineer Detachment
Expeditioner Detachment
Shortbeard Detachment - should all be worth 2. NOT 3 as stated.
Retributor Squadron - not 3 should be 4.
Thudd Gun Battery not 3. should be 2
Im telling ya, please look at the list for 5 minutes. You will go bananas.  :confuse:

As a final note. I might be wrong cause perhaps the designer thought that there should in MOST cases be an increase in VP:s eventhough it is 1.33 vp:s rounded to 2.

In the other armies 1.5 VP:s are 2..
Perhaps im being to mathematical. After all, its just a game.  :)

/P-man

Hi!

No worries. I will make the changes when we get to the book.

Primarch

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zap123
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:45 am 
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If P tallies up all the wrong break points I can correct them in the source book.

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Pettan
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:43 pm 
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Hey again.

Last time I played Epic I checked my armycards from the good old days. In these it is very clear that squat armycards that count 3 units in them do NOT have a VP increase. Sooo.. I conclude that the in the squat army there is not an increase in the VP value of a unit/card if the breakpoint is not affected. (1,2 or 3 units in the detachment)

a few examples of the error..
1. Goliath Superheavy Artillery Battery 6 VP in rules today. should be 5.
Ironhammer Squadron
Ram Squadron *
Grudgekeeper
and others...

2. An another error in the same list are the: Observation Balloon Squadron VP value should be 1. not 2.

3. At page 4 it is stated that 150 points of squats should yield 3 VP:s I count 150 *1.33 at 199.5= 2 VP:s If this is calculated as 150 gives 2 vps and then *1.33 you get to 3. But I believe the count should be on 1.5 VP:s not 2.

If this is the still the case then the same calculation method should be used to 550pts aswell and also to 650pts

Note. I apologize if I am repeating myself to much.

//Pete

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zap123
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:42 am 
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If the "errors" give up higher than expected VPs, as a general principle I think we should leave well enough alone....it's not as if the Squats are under performing  :p  ??? .  As arguably the most powerful list I don't think they need helping.

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Warhead
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:56 am 
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Hi guys,

Are Squats really so powerful Zap? (Honest question not flippant)

I looked at the NetEpic v5.0 rules and although I agree that the 'Stubborn' rule is powerful and should have a draw back I was horrified by the level of VP awarded for it.
I think that the extra VP's for Squats are currently too high a price to include small sized units in an army. BP 2 for a 3 unit detachment gives no benefit so why should it receive a disadvantage? (And I don't think exclusion of some Squat units was the intention here.)
It's curious that for an extra 25% to your break point you pay an extra 33% on your VP.


Perhaps if the VP total was worked out differently. Perhaps a lesser incline in VP's would provide a compromise you could all live with.

Cost        VP    
50 points    1
100 points   2
150 points   2
200 points   3
250 points   3
300 points   4
350 points   4
400 points   5
450 points   5
500 points   6 and so on

Simply add one VP point to the normal VP with the exception of fractional .50 point units as you are already rounding up to the nearest whole number anyway.

This way you rightly get to keep the Stubborn ability 75% break Points but still pay for it. Just not so much it puts you off entirely.

Using the percentile increase across the board inflates the VP for small units too much. It puts Assault VP rules and Tyranid VP rules well out of whack too.

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scream
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:15 am 
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I should say:

keep the 33% more VP for 25% extra break points, the 25% to break point is a great advantage that should give more than 1VP.

The problem on VP for the new cards is the following:

In SM/TL erra, extra VP are only accorded to units when the BP can be increased by the stubborn rule:

- cards with 3 vehicles: standard BP: 2 -> stubborn BP: 2 -> no VP bonus unit VP should stay the same
examples:
> rhinos, land raiders, gyrocopters detachments...

- special case for the land train/hellworm wagons detachement -> engine comes with 1 wagon and you score VP for 3 battle cars destroyed when you take extra battle cars so stubborn rule applys.


Following this rule, we get these errors (card name, contains, BP, moral, VP, cost):
Ironhammer Squadron 3 Ironhammer Main Battle Tanks 2 2 3 250
Ironshield Squadron 3 Ironshield APCs 2 2 2 200
Ram Squadron * 3 Rams 2 2 3 300
Iron Eagle Gyrocopter Squadron 3 Iron Eagle Attack Gyrocopters 2 2 2 200
Steel Hawk Gyrocopter Squadron 3 Steel Hawk Gyrocopters 2 2 3 200
War Hawk Gyrocopter Squadron 3 War Hawk Gyrocopters 2 2 2 200
Zutik Bomber Squadron * 3 Zutik Gyrocopter Bombers 2 2 5 500
Tarantula Battery 5 Tarantulas 4 2 3 150
Grudgekeeper 3 Grudgekeeper vehicles 2 2 5500


I agree that the DoomAnvil Squadron should give points for each pretorian destroyed, like titan companies.

@Pettan :about the standard cost and VP calculation:

- There are no half VP -> VP are integers (and I would be really disappointed to see halp VP appearing)
- VP are computed this way for non-squat units: cost [0-125] -> VP = 1, [126 - 225] -> VP = 2, [226 - 325] -> VP = 3 etc...
- BP are rounded to the upper integer: 5 units BP is halved to 2.5 and rounded to 3. With stubborn rule: 3+(33% stubborn bonus)= 4 BP

Maybe some problems comme from the stubborn tables that triy to explain how are computed BP and VP...

- some problems come from the 2 tables in the stubborn rule part




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Warhead
 Post subject: Error in Squat army list?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Hi,

- cards with 3 vehicles: standard BP: 2 -> stubborn BP: 2 -> no VP bonus unit VP should stay the same
examples:
> rhinos, land raiders, gyrocopters detachments...


Ok, so you agree that due to no increase in BP from Stubborn these units should not grant extra VP. Seems an easy enough fix.

There are no half VP -> VP are integers (and I would be really disappointed to see halp VP appearing)

Not trying to introduce half points in VP. (?)

I agree that the DoomAnvil Squadron should give points for each pretorian destroyed, like titan companies.

Ditto. Probable typo?

The question is though. Does this satisfy Pettan's/other players irritation with the rules?

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