Tactical Command
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AA weapons...
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11509		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  darkangel [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
i think we should change the AA ability slightly...

i think they shoud be also special by shooting floaters by ignoring the 25 cm rule...otherwise there is no different shooting floaters with AA or any other weapon! but they are considerded to be fired high flying objects!
Author:  primarch [ Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
Hi!

Thats a good point.

Opinions?

Primarch
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:02 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
I think that would be ok with the standard Flyer rules as floaters are uber powerful, but I wouldn't really accept that change with the alternate Flyer Rules as Floaters have been brought back to the field enough already.   Big difference between AA and normal weapons is the ability to track and target fast movers IMO....Shadowsword should be about as good as a Hydra at shooting a gasbag.  Gravity applies to AA weapons too!
Author:  yogozuno [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:29 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
To be honest, I would like to see Flyer weapons altered to be AA weapons by default...it seems silly that my flyer, with 25cm range weapons, can't shoot them at another flyer unless he is in base contact...
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:55 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
The main reason we haven't allowed flyers to shoot flyers is we are concerned that it would unfairly favour those races who have flyers with long ranged attacks (primarily Eldar and Tau) and seriously disadvantage those with shorter range (most noteably Orks!).  Orks really count on the Fighter-bombers as their flak frankly sucks.....but if a Barracuda or Nightwing could shoot it out of the sky the Orks would be in trouble.  Imperials are less at risk as they have good flak (though Marines and PDF might struggle).  Given those longed ranged flyers already have great utility at attaking ground units, making them better wasn't seen as a good thing.  It also means that heavy flyers like Tigersharks and Phoenix would be "better" at air combat than dedicated airsup fighters like T-Bolts and Doom Wings and Ork Fighta-Bombas.

However, given the different order structure for flyers, they cant shoot before close combat is resolved.  So a short ranged (but hopefully fast) flyer could in theory get one chance to engage the enemy in CC before getting shot down....so it may not be earth shattering to change.  Still not really in favour though.
Author:  yogozuno [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
I see what you're saying...my reason for mentioning this is two-fold. Firstly, because flyers cannot pin, if you happen to have to move your flyer before the other flyer, and the other flyer does not wish to be hurt, then there is absolutely nothing whatsoever your flyer can do...the other flyer gets away scott-free, and can do whatever it likes, with no fear of being shot at. To me, it seems strange that the initiative roll can effectively determine whether or not a dogfight happens (Sound familliar at all? ;) )

Secondly, given the limited ranges of some flyers, it is entirely possible that you will be unable to reach dogfight range with an enemy flyer, and yet still be within weapons range of it. Again, you can now shoot at ground units that happen to be right beside or even under the enemy flyer, but you cannot do anything whatsoever to the enemy flyer? Frustrating and strange.

Perhaps I'm getting a skewed view from the flyers I'm using, but these situations are very unrealistic, and not that uncommon in the games I've been playing.
Author:  darkangel [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...

(zap123 @ Jan. 17 2008,05:55)
QUOTE

i can not imagine any reason, why a flier should not shoot at other fliers! why not?

and of course the should not pay the -25cm modifier, because they are on the same level!

i have something to say to snap fire. in my opinion it is more tactical if you can just fire snap fire , if you have not moved before, so you have to think about the fact moving an overloard or preatorian, because there are close combat units in the near! you are forced to bring your overloard in a better firing position by moving him, or keeping the position firing snap fire...what do you all think?
Author:  scream [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
I think the alternate flying rule is OK (and ran perfectly during the 4 battles I reported). The AA ability too. About flyers shooting flyers, I agree with darkangel on the fact that flyers shooting flyers at the same altitude should not have to pay the -25cm range penalty.
Author:  zap123 [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:37 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...

(yogozuno @ Jan. 17 2008,07:17)
QUOTE
I see what you're saying...my reason for mentioning this is two-fold. Firstly, because flyers cannot pin, if you happen to have to move your flyer before the other flyer, and the other flyer does not wish to be hurt, then there is absolutely nothing whatsoever your flyer can do...the other flyer gets away scott-free, and can do whatever it likes, with no fear of being shot at. To me, it seems strange that the initiative roll can effectively determine whether or not a dogfight happens (Sound familliar at all? ;) )

Secondly, given the limited ranges of some flyers, it is entirely possible that you will be unable to reach dogfight range with an enemy flyer, and yet still be within weapons range of it. Again, you can now shoot at ground units that happen to be right beside or even under the enemy flyer, but you cannot do anything whatsoever to the enemy flyer? Frustrating and strange.

Perhaps I'm getting a skewed view from the flyers I'm using, but these situations are very unrealistic, and not that uncommon in the games I've been playing.

The first bit is part of the thrill of alternating movement and fog of war....remember too it is also your choice of orders not strictly just initiative that can affect this. ?The Tau and my Orks have played tiggy for 3 turns before I was finally able to get to grips with their stinken' Barracudas....but I got 'em in the end!  Better, it forced the Tau player to give some units Advance when he probably would have preferred them on First Fire. ?If we allowed flyers to shoot flyers it's likely the Barracudas would have just swatted the Fighta-Bombas first turn and then gone on their merry strafing way. ?With the alternate Flyer rules we tried to come up with something that was reasonably fair all round....not an easy thing to accomplish. ?So, T-Bolts and F-Bombas and Doom Wings are useful choices despite their short range, Barracudas and Nightwings are still solid, big aircraft still pack a whallop but have to be wary of enemy fighters....a fair result. ?I do think the Vultures suffer because they are neither fish nor fowl....but they did ok in their attack run, just got a twee overenthusiastic against the blimp. :)
Author:  darkangel [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...

(zap123 @ Jan. 17 2008,10:37)
QUOTE

fact is, that a flier can shoot a flier in real life!!! and because of the move-rate about 75-100cm it is possible for all fliers to shoot at each other!
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
If I want flyers shooting flyers, I'll play an air combat game. IMO, Epic is a ground game and the only role I want my airplanes to have is flying artillery. However, I could live with floaters being able to shoot at each other and if they're at the same altitude, the 25cm penalty shouldn't apply.
Author:  darkangel [ Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...

(Dwarf Supreme @ Jan. 17 2008,14:20)
QUOTE
If I want flyers shooting flyers, I'll play an air combat game. IMO, Epic is a ground game and the only role I want my airplanes to have is flying artillery. However, I could live with floaters being able to shoot at each other and if they're at the same altitude, the 25cm penalty shouldn't apply.

the reason why we play epic and not warhammer is, that you have the whole army which you will have in a real war too...from infantrie to titans...and flyers are part of this war, so why not beeing real and let fliers shoot fliers...remember the movie  :D top gun

it is very important, if you have just one detachment fliers to search for te enemy flier detachment and shoot them, because fliers are hard to beat for non flier units because of the to hit modifier.
Author:  zap123 [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
Flyers shooting flyers AKA Top Gun is represented by Close Combat.  If you want Epic to represent how things worked in Top Gun you can't let Epic Flyers shoot Epic flyers because you will have B-52s (Phoenix, Tigershark etc) shooting down F-14s (T-Bolts, Fighta-Bombas, Doom Wings etc) before the F-14s even get a chance to engage.  Forcing flyers to "dogfight" was the best means we could come up with to try and represent how things should work.   With the rules as they are the fast, higher CAF (good dogfighters) aircraft are the kings of the sky and the bombers need to fear them.  This IS how it works in real life isn't it?

Also, remember Floaters are different to aircraft.  An aircraft can shoot a Floater....everything can.  I don't have any problem with dropping the 25cm range penalty if both are at high, but IIRC the penalty still applied under the original rules.
Author:  yogozuno [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:39 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
Also, remember Floaters are different to aircraft.
Woah, are we talking the alternate flier rules here, or the standard? I don't know the Alternate rules, but in the standard rules, Floaters can ONLY be targetted by Infantry or AA guns...

With the rules as they are the fast, higher CAF (good dogfighters) aircraft are the kings of the sky and the bombers need to fear them.
...unless the fast, high CAF dogfighters don't get activated last, in which case the other aircraft get away scott free. Seriously, though - is there a good reason why Flyers cannot pin other Flyers/Floaters?? I can understand not wanting Flyers to pin ground units, and I can understand not wanting ground units to pin Flyers, but...if I assault a Leman Russ with a Rhino, it HAS to fight me in the assault step. If I assault a flyer with another flyer...it can just slip away, depending on initiative results. Even Skimmers can be pinned by an enemy Skimmers. Why not Flyers?
Author:  primarch [ Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  AA weapons...
Hi!

Ah... flier rules..the eternal thorn in netepic (and SM2/TL too) rules.

In 11 years we've pretty much done it all. All those things you guys mention, fliers shooting at fliers, elaborate flier rules with dogfights, bomber escort and all that jazz.

None of it has worked well unfortunately.

Netepic is predominately a land based game where aircraft are a "supporting" role. They enter the immediate area, strafe, bomb and leave. The air superiority aspect of air war is not represented. Interception, bomber escorts and other types of mission, while conceptually cool are a game mechanic  problem in the existing rules.

Thats why we don't have core flier rules beyond the very "simple" ones. In fact I have suggested that use of flier be optional since a lot of players don't even want to use them.

The best approach is to use alternate rules where individual groups pick what suit their tastes.

I'm open to as complex or elaborate flier rules as you all care to make them, but only as an alternate and in the end optional rules. No flier system has ever been accepted as core by most netepic users. To many varying tastes for a unified system.

Primarch
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