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"penetraiting" and tyranid titans
darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 1:44 pm 
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hi folks,

i remember that we discussed the case that a penetrating weapon shoots at a tyranid titan.

we aggred that a penetraiting weapon modifies the fix location save from the tyranid titan but give you no adding to the damage table roll.

example:
you fire with a volcano cannon and you hit at the front. the tyranid titan first roll the normal save and he only saves by a 6. then you choose the head and your aiming dices are blank. you hit the head! then you normally have to throw a 6 to push through the head. because of the penetraiting of +3 which the volcano cannon has you only have  to throw a 3+ to push through the head but now you do not get the adding +3 to the damage roll.

is this considered in the errata to netepic 5.0 ???

regards kai
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scream
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:19 pm 
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Hi Kai,

could you put the lik where this point have been discussed ? As it's a main modification, I'd like to know why ?

I always thought that:

1) You shoot a bio-titan with a volcano canon -4tsm/+3 penetrating
2) the shoot is successfull and you choose a location, throw location dices, if shoot do not scatter off the template, titan player try the overall armor save with weapon tsm  
3) shoot is not saved -> Bio Titan take 1 wound
4) now, as shot is passed, try to inflict critical wound, throw a dice on location hit template with no modifier
5) if critical dice is ok, throw in the critical hit table with penetrating bonus...

It's totally different, why this way of hitting bio-titan was modified ?

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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:44 pm 
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(scream @ Jul. 02 2007,14:19)
QUOTE
Hi Kai,

could you put the lik where this point have been discussed ? As it's a main modification, I'd like to know why ?

I always thought that:

1) You shoot a bio-titan with a volcano canon -4tsm/+3 penetrating
2) the shoot is successfull and you choose a location, throw location dices, if shoot do not scatter off the template, titan player try the overall armor save with weapon tsm ?
3) shoot is not saved -> Bio Titan take 1 wound
4) now, as shot is passed, try to inflict critical wound, throw a dice on location hit template with no modifier
5) if critical dice is ok, throw in the critical hit table with penetrating bonus...

It's totally different, why this way of hitting bio-titan was modified ?

sorry, i didn`t find the topic.

yes, you are right this is the normal way shooting at a tyranid titan!

we discussed it because we think that the tyranids have never aligned since they were indrodcted. remembe, they came at last in the end of the sm2 period. there were no army update by the old rases as a reaction of the new tyranids.

i think that the tyranid titan is unbeatable. and this is no theory. last fight a complete ork, imperial and chaos army in range fired at only 1 tyranid titan. he was damaged on the ground and got up after regenerating wounds. i would say that 3-4 warlord titans were collapsed with this incomming fire. try it! take 3 land raider companies (2250 points!!!!!) and try to destroy the tyranid titan. i promise he will regenerade and get up again. and now the best there were 3 tyranids titans on the battlefield!!!!
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scream
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:07 pm 
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It's true that in SMV2, it was quite easy to destroy them...surround them with a lot (10+) of cheap units and start the CC (now that titans are far more difficult to destroy with smaller units (who said impossible ? ;) )


I think that the main problem with bio-titan armor save is not the overall armor but the critical hit template saves...why not using the weapon tsm for the second save and keeping the penetration factor for critical table ? But it means modifying all bio-titan templates...




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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:27 pm 
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(scream @ Jul. 02 2007,15:07)
QUOTE
It's true that in SMV2, it was quite easy to destroy them...surround them with a lot (10+) of cheap units and start the CC (if the biotitan...now that titans are far more difficult to destroy with smaller units (who said impossible ? ;) )


I think that the main problem with bio-titan armor save is not the overall armor but the critical hit template saves...why not using the weapon tsm for the second save and keeping the penetration factor for critical table ? But it means modifying all bio-titan templates...

yes, i think there are many possibilities changing something in the rules. but fact is, that the fix save is in in no relation to the heaviest weapons. imagine firing with 3 shadowswords at one warlord...bye bye! firing at a bio titan. first 3 times 6+ save. then (you have to choose the leg, because otherwise you have to throw 5+ or 6+ on the head) and the titan has a fix save by 4+!!! hey, we are talking about the heaviest weapon besides the plasma destructor.

but i do not think, that the fix shoot should be modify by all weapons, because the titan has no shields, so that is to ard, but you could simply say, that penetraiting weapons (all races have some) could modify the fix save. then you have a change to damage the head. what do you think?
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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:32 pm 
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(scream @ Jul. 02 2007,15:07)
QUOTE
It's true that in SMV2, it was quite easy to destroy them...surround them with a lot (10+) of cheap units and start the CC (if the biotitan...now that titans are far more difficult to destroy with smaller units (who said impossible ? ;) )


I think that the main problem with bio-titan armor save is not the overall armor but the critical hit template saves...why not using the weapon tsm for the second save and keeping the penetration factor for critical table ? But it means modifying all bio-titan templates...

and can you tell me what is when i throw a 2 on the leg table...the titans move reduce by 10 cm. and what if i throw a 2 again, move reduce by 20 cm??? or does nothing happens?
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scream
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:01 pm 
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I think that before hitting a warlord, you'll need to destroy all shields...not to hard it's true with a Land Raider company and the "finish him" shot from a shadow sword will surely put the warlord down ;)

The problem with bio-titan, is the lack of shields, the way wounds work ans so on...really hard to find a good balance  but I agree with you that they are currently a really really to hard to destroy units :/

About the legs...they have 4 and their resistance is still related to the way wounds and overall armor work...if too easy to hit&destroy, bio-titan will be cheese and will collapse to fastly...

PS: I do not play Tyranides, I just played against them long time ago with SMV2 rules ;)

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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:10 pm 
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(scream @ Jul. 02 2007,16:01)
QUOTE
I think that before hitting a warlord, you'll need to destroy all shields...not to hard it's true with a Land Raider company and the "finish him" shot from a shadow sword will surely put the warlord down ;)

The problem with bio-titan, is the lack of shields, the way wounds work ans so on...really hard to find a good balance ?but I agree with you that they are currently a really really to hard to destroy units :/

About the legs...they have 4 and their resistance is still related to the way wounds and overall armor work...if too easy to hit&destroy, bio-titan will be cheese and will collapse to fastly...

PS: I do not play Tyranides, I just played against them long time ago with SMV2 rules ;)

yes but who desides some changes in the tyranid rules?

like i said we discussed it and the penetraiting rule was one thing everybody agreed with.

i do not have another idea, because, like you said, the titans have no shields, so they should have an advantage. perhabs you reduce all fix saves by one...so head 5+ instead of 6+ and so on...this could be a way, too...what do you think? and the most important question, who desides it and writes it down to the rules...

and another question. what if i roll a 2 on the leg damage table (reduce move by 10 cm) and then i shoot a second time and roll a 2 again. is the move reduced by 20 cm or will his be ignored.
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zap123
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:10 am 
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Scream. have you played with/against Bio-Titans lately?  A Heirophant is particularly bad, but even the Heirodule to some degree are virtually unstoppable now.  If you find the original thread you can see the maths, but statistically a Heirophant soaks up almost 3 times as much fire before you will kill it compared to a Warlord (which is usually going to be more expensive).  Add this to their huge advantage in Close Combat and they are massively unbalanced.

After some debate it was agreed that Penetrating values would be added to both the Critical roll, and the Damage roll as a way of partially offsetting this massive advantage.  Even the local Tyranid player agreed this was fair.  Having said that, you wont see this rule until the Tyranid Gold book comes out, so you can ignore it until then if you want....or ignore it forever.....but dont be surprised if your opponents start attacking your Heirophants with a hammer :)

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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:39 am 
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(zap123 @ Jul. 03 2007,01:10)
QUOTE
Scream. have you played with/against Bio-Titans lately? ?A Heirophant is particularly bad, but even the Heirodule to some degree are virtually unstoppable now. ?If you find the original thread you can see the maths, but statistically a Heirophant soaks up almost 3 times as much fire before you will kill it compared to a Warlord (which is usually going to be more expensive). ?Add this to their huge advantage in Close Combat and they are massively unbalanced.

After some debate it was agreed that Penetrating values would be added to both the Critical roll, and the Damage roll as a way of partially offsetting this massive advantage. ?Even the local Tyranid player agreed this was fair. ?Having said that, you wont see this rule until the Tyranid Gold book comes out, so you can ignore it until then if you want....or ignore it forever.....but dont be surprised if your opponents start attacking your Heirophants with a hammer :)

hi zap, thanks for the support because i have not found our last discussion in the forum.

yes, i think it is the best way to give the penetraitig weapons (and every race has at least one) this advantage due to the tyranid titans. but perhaps we should think about giving the tyranid titan a special. fact is, that the tiranid titan has a fix location save. so if we say penetraiting weapons modify this save, it could be fair that then the penetraiting do not affect the damage table role too. you know what i mean..either, or...or do you think that the penetraiting should modify the fix location plus ading +3 to the damage table?

can you tell me when this rule you described is printed in the new tyranids rules?
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scream
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:43 am 
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Hi Zap and darkangel,

I totally agree with you that bio titans are far too strong. I think that the topic where you discussed the bio-titan is there.

I agree with the solution you found:

Ok, so any weapon with a Penetrating value (Volcano, Hellfury, Exocrine etc) that successfully hit the Bio Titan gets to add its' Penetrating value to the die roll for a Critical.  If successful, the Penetrating value is also added to the resulting damage roll on the Critical table.

So a Volcano cannon hits a Heirophant in the abdomen.  The Tyranid player fails the 6+ save (2+ save, -4TSM), and the Bio-titan suffers a wound.  The attacker then rolls a 3 against the Critical Hit chart, and adds the +3 Penetrating, making it a 6, successfully causing a critical.  The attacker then rolls on the Abdomen critical table, getting a 4.  He again adds the +3 Penetrating, making it an effective 6, and therefore inflicitng an additional D3 wounds.  (if he had gone for the head he would have caused an additional 2D6 wounds!).

One issue with this is it does nothing against Dominatrix...but I'm kinda ok with them being uber-hard to kill as they are the army commander, and not anywhere near as scary in close combat as the Titans.

The other minor problem is the spread of weapons with a Penetrating rating is varied.  The Volcano cannon is the prime candidate, so the Imperial Armies are ok, also getting the Leman Rus variant.  Squats get a few including the Hellfury, Tyranids get the Exocrine for any civil wars between Hive Fleets, Orks the Supa Gun and some Gargant weapons, Chaos one Daemon Prince only but do have access to Volcanos.  Slann and Necrons are ok, Dark Eldar get a Volcano Cannon equivalent.  I think the only guys to dip out entirely are the "good" Eldar lists.  Maybe the Prism Cannons should get Penetrating +1?


- 1 proposition: would it be fair if any wound not regenerated in the end phase by the bio-titan could become un-regenerable ?

I think about that because, even if you field 3 shadowswords, if you (luckily) manage to inflict 12 wounds in the first turn to a Hierophant, it regenerates 6 wounds in the end of first turn, runs to hide in the second turn and regenerate another 3 wounds -> in the third turn, it comes quit like new...with only 3 wounds :/ But will your shadowswords be still alive in the third turn ?

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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:42 pm 
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(scream @ Jul. 03 2007,09:43)
QUOTE
Hi Zap and darkangel,

I totally agree with you that bio titans are far too strong. I think that the topic where you discussed the bio-titan is there.

I agree with the solution you found:

Ok, so any weapon with a Penetrating value (Volcano, Hellfury, Exocrine etc) that successfully hit the Bio Titan gets to add its' Penetrating value to the die roll for a Critical. ?If successful, the Penetrating value is also added to the resulting damage roll on the Critical table.

So a Volcano cannon hits a Heirophant in the abdomen. ?The Tyranid player fails the 6+ save (2+ save, -4TSM), and the Bio-titan suffers a wound. ?The attacker then rolls a 3 against the Critical Hit chart, and adds the +3 Penetrating, making it a 6, successfully causing a critical. ?The attacker then rolls on the Abdomen critical table, getting a 4. ?He again adds the +3 Penetrating, making it an effective 6, and therefore inflicitng an additional D3 wounds. ?(if he had gone for the head he would have caused an additional 2D6 wounds!).

One issue with this is it does nothing against Dominatrix...but I'm kinda ok with them being uber-hard to kill as they are the army commander, and not anywhere near as scary in close combat as the Titans.

The other minor problem is the spread of weapons with a Penetrating rating is varied. ?The Volcano cannon is the prime candidate, so the Imperial Armies are ok, also getting the Leman Rus variant. ?Squats get a few including the Hellfury, Tyranids get the Exocrine for any civil wars between Hive Fleets, Orks the Supa Gun and some Gargant weapons, Chaos one Daemon Prince only but do have access to Volcanos. ?Slann and Necrons are ok, Dark Eldar get a Volcano Cannon equivalent. ?I think the only guys to dip out entirely are the "good" Eldar lists. ?Maybe the Prism Cannons should get Penetrating +1?


- 1 proposition: would it be fair if any wound not regenerated in the end phase by the bio-titan could become un-regenerable ?

I think about that because, even if you field 3 shadowswords, if you (luckily) manage to inflict 12 wounds in the first turn to a Hierophant, it regenerates 6 wounds in the end of first turn, runs to hide in the second turn and regenerate another 3 wounds -> in the third turn, it comes quit like new...with only 3 wounds :/ But will your shadowswords be still alive in the third turn ?

i agree with you...let us imagine the following situation:

let us imagine that 3 shadowswords fire at the head of the titan to have the change to make max. damage:

-first you must hit on 3+
-scatter
-save by 6+
-to get critical damage you need 3+
-to get max. damage you need 3+ again
-and then you throw 2d6 and the result is 2.

what a procedure and the tyranid player is laughing!

and then you are right, he can regenerate all wounds turn by turn again...

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scream
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:54 pm 
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about my proposition for un-regenerable wounds, it was in addition to all others quoted propositions  :;):

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zap123
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:27 pm 
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Yup, that was also suggested in the Tyranid thread....any wounds that are not regenerated in the end phase become permanent.  I think it too had general agreement.  I think we need to check out who is doing the Tyranid Gold book and get it out soon!  Primarch?  I'm sure we could get OzTenaka on it :)

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darkangel
 Post subject: "penetraiting" and tyranid titans
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:57 pm 
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(zap123 @ Jul. 03 2007,13:27)
QUOTE
Yup, that was also suggested in the Tyranid thread....any wounds that are not regenerated in the end phase become permanent. ?I think it too had general agreement. ?I think we need to check out who is doing the Tyranid Gold book and get it out soon! ?Primarch? ?I'm sure we could get OzTenaka on it :)

ok, now i understand what you mean. i think so too, not regenerated wounds should be stay.

but another generally thing due to damage tables: example the tyranid titan... what if i first throw a 3 on the leg damage table from the tyranid titan (this means that the titans move is reduced by 10 cm) and then i hit the same location again roll a 3 (+1 because the second time) makes 4 (this means the titans move is reduced by 10 cm, too). so what to do now, is the move reduced by 20 cm or stays it by -10cm?
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