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Ork stuff
zap123
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:57 am 
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First up, the Snakebites.  How exactly are you meant to use units like the Boarboys and Cyberwyverns?  These are both fairly decent units with good mobility....but you can only move them like expensive infantry because you have no way of keeping them in command (well, I did come up with one plan where you take some Nobz on Warbikes for the Evil Sunz and use them to command your Snakebite stuff....but that's getting a twee silly).  I did contemplate a Snakebite Clan with 5 support cards of Boarboys.....but it doesn't work very well as they charge turn one, then go out of command then they can only move 20cm... :(

BTW, when did the Lungbursta get a turret?   :p

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zap123
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:13 pm 
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So, anyone got any errata for the Orks?

KoS - should make it one Buggy Mob in keeping with new rules.  Should they get 5 Mekboy slots like the old days?

Lungbursta and turret thingy.

Bad wording on Mob rule that needs tidying.

Anything else???

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:33 pm 
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I think Boarboyz are treated as Bikeboyz.

I don't think the Cyberwyvern has ever been an epic unit.

As for the Lungbursta, I've never thought of it as a turret, but rather a fixed slab of armor, kind of like a Jagdtiger.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:39 pm 
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The Cyberwyvern was originally from a Citadel Journal article IIRC

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Dwarf Supreme
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:43 pm 
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(Warmaster Nice @ Aug. 27 2007,10:39)
QUOTE
The Cyberwyvern was originally from a Citadel Journal article IIRC

That explains why I never heard of it.

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Ulmo
 Post subject: Ork stuff
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:46 pm 
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Hi,
Here are my comments on the Ork Army book :
  • All the Gargant damage table miss the "Hull" table (In SM2 it was 1-5 : +1 to any next roll on this table / 6 : starts one fire)
  • The relation between "Ammo" (on the template) and "Magazine" (in the tables) isn't immediate. The same word should be used for the 2.
  • The Evil Suns Nob Warbike can probably also be purchased by the Kult of Speed (at least it is mentionned on the SM2 army cards).
  • The choice of clans isn't totaly clear. Is SM2 a clan couldn't be purchased twice unless all clans are already present. It seems it is not the case anymore, this should be stated explicitely.
  • If not, are the Kult of Speed and Wild Horde clans too ? What support card are allowed ?
  • Is the WildMob support card reserved for the Wild Horde company card ?
  • Does Goffik (the Rockker Tour Wagon) means it is reserved to the Goff clan ?
  • Hop Splat gun : Attack Dice is certainly "1BP @" and not just "1BP".
  • Speaking of this, the meaning of this "@" should be stated somewhere, even if it should be implicitely clear.
  • Can the 5 extra nobz support cards (Ork Hordes optional rule) be boarboyz for the Snakebites clan ?
  • When using a Shock attack gun againt an unit in the air (flier/floater at high altitude, skimmer or units on roof should be ignored here) I think it's an instadeath of the snotlings if there is some scatter.
  • The Bomma should definitely be a mekboy unit, as it is a heavier version of the Fighta-Bomba.
  • Flakwagon : not beeing a Mekboy unit should be considered. They don't seem to use special technology, and would be more available (considering they have a short range for an Anti-Aircraft unit, this is probably not a great problem for flyers).
  • Squiggoth card is listed with cavalry instead of Vehicles.
  • Does a Squiggoth killed in CC go into rampage ? Maybe it should depend if it is pinned or not.
  • The Stormboyz card mention a Kaptain, but neither the description nor the stats does.
  • It seems that units of the same type attached to a clan card fall into the same mob, not only those listed as "Mob" in the army cards. Right ?
  • If this applies to battlefortress, this lead to a unit of 5 superheavies with a break value of 5, which is quite hard and not very Orkish, but shouldn't be a problem.
  • Moreover the Kult of Speed explicitely has 2 Warbuggy Mobs. I think the Kult is fine this way, but this not coherent (and thus confusing).
  • It is not clear if Gibletgrinda/skullhamma can give order or not (as it is mentionned they have Nobz on board). Old SM2 rules state they can't give orders, it should be clearly stated in NetEPIC too.
  • What happens if there aren't enough Mekboy cards (puchase the renegade + 5 mekboy units, and 2 more units with the Blood Axes, it's done) ? I think you just get all the 15 cards, but this should be stated.
  • The "Max 1/clan" in the army card should be associated to Dreadnoughts instead of Pulsa Rokkits (as mentionned in the descriptions. Moreover restricting the Pulsa Rokkits is useless as only one can be fired each turn).
  • Hop Splat gun unlimbering rules doesn't state what happens if it hits a superheavy.
  • The Renegade card is confusing : does is form a mob ? Or are all vehicle independent ? Or you get one Mob per Speedsta type ? What's the use of a dragsta mob (shields annihilate each other) ? Why does this card mention its own Instinct ? Is this instinct shared by all Mekboy Speedsta/dragsta ?


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    zap123
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:38 am 
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    Cyber Wyvern is in the NE5.0 book.  In the old Citadel Journal article there were actually 2 versions of the Cyber Wyvern, but I think the one we've got is fine.

    I think the "have to buy one of each clan before doubling up" should be included yes.

    KoS was always a Clan and used to be able to take any generic or Evil Sunz only detachment.  Should be that way again IMO.  Wild Horde is new...I would imagine may take any Snakebite support might be appropriate?

    Renegade Mekboys - this is where the old cards were good.  I think it is clear it forms a single mob as it has a break value.  Not  really anywhere you can clarify cards atm is there.  They have an Instinct to show they need to be lead by Nobz, and what happens if they aren't :)

    I'll start fixing the Ork book now.

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    Juffo-Wup
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:59 am 
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    I'd like to see the Fighta-Bommas stop being a Mekboy Card.  I think they would be common enough to make them a non-Mekboy unit (and this would mean that the Bomma unit would remain as a non-Mekboy unit).

    If we restrict Dreadnoughts to 1 per clan then we should reintroduce the SM2 rule that Bad Moonz could take two cards (as they are wealthier than other clans).

    I don't see an issue with either restricting clans to 1 of each type until you have them all, or if we allow multiple of each clan regardless of army makeup.  Each one will balance itself out in the end.

    The Kult of Speed and Wilboys cards are "clans" only in the fact they are are company cards.  This should be clearly stated.  They are able to take any non clan-specific support cards (this makes extra boyz cards a bit weird so I suggest that both clans should not be able to take extra boyz cards).  We should also re-introduce the rule that the Kult of Speed can take up to 5 Mekboy Support Cards plus Evil Sunz only cards and introduce the rule that the Wildboyz Horde should not be able to take any Mekboy Support Cards (as I don't think they would attract them) and can use Snakebites only cards.

    Now how are we fixing the Mobs and BP/VP rule?
    Mobs of the same unit type from the same clan form into big mobs, yes?
    BP and VP for each support card adds to the total BP and VPs for the clan as a whole and the whole clan breaks when the total BP is reached, but each mob takes separate morale checks.  VPs are only awarded when the whole clan is broken.  This is the way things worked under the old SM2 system and I think is the way it should work now (its the way I always assumed it worked).

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    primarch
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:00 am 
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    Hi!

    I agree with Juffo-wup and his interpretations, make those changes.

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    Ulmo
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:20 pm 
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    (zap123 @ Aug. 28 2007,02:38)
    QUOTE
    I think the "have to buy one of each clan before doubling up" should be included yes.
    I don't like this rule more than that, but I've nothing really against it either. But in cas it is used, we have to agree on the following :
    This only apply to the 6 clans, so KoS and WildHorde are not needed to have a 7th clan, neither are limited in number.
    Or maybe the KoS can take the place of an Evil Suns clan.
    Each MegaGargant counts as a clan that is declared when purchasing it (so you can have all clans except Goff, a MegaGargant, and a second SnakeBites).

    Renegade Mekboys - this is where the old cards were good. ?I think it is clear it forms a single mob as it has a break value.
    Not really anywhere you can clarify cards atm is there. ?They have an Instinct to show they need to be lead by Nobz, and what happens
    if they aren't :)
    Right. And in this case, I imagine that extra Speedstas fall into this mob too.
    But in the case of multiple speedstas without the Renegade card, do they form a single mob ?


    (Juffo-Wup @ Aug. 28 2007,04:59)
    QUOTE
    I'd like to see the Fighta-Bommas stop being a Mekboy Card. ?I think they would be common enough to make them a non-Mekboy unit (and this would mean that the Bomma unit would remain as a non-Mekboy unit).

    Repeat after me : If Gork and Mork wanted orks to fly, they would have given us wings.
    That was in the SM2 rules, and that's why the CyberWywern were introduced later as an optional unit.
    So I'm not against allowing flyiers, as many gamers have Fighta-Bomba, but in my opinion they should stay limited.
    And Copter too should be a Mekboy unit (technology is harder than for planes).

    If we restrict Dreadnoughts to 1 per clan then we should reintroduce the SM2 rule that Bad Moonz could take two cards (as they are wealthier than other clans).This too tends to make special units more common, but once again, why not.

    The Kult of Speed and Wilboys cards are "clans" only in the fact they are are company cards. ?This should be clearly stated.
    They are able to take any non clan-specific support cards (this makes extra boyz cards a bit weird so I suggest that both clans
    should not be able to take extra boyz cards). We should also re-introduce the rule that the Kult of Speed can take up to 5 Mekboy
    Support Cards plus Evil Sunz only cards and introduce the rule that the Wildboyz Horde should not be able to take any Mekboy Support
    Cards (as I don't think they would attract them) and can use Snakebites only cards.
    KoS / Wild not real clans : I agree
    no extra boyz for them : I agree
    I suggest WildHorde can take extra Wilbboyz instead (green Horde optional rule)
    I would deny infantry and any artillery to the KoS
    Allow 5 Mekboy cards to KoS : I agree
    KoS can purchase Evil Suns cards : I agree (it already seemed logical regarding extra nobz)
    I would also deny artillery (Squigg catapult) to Wild horde. But this adds complication to the rules for a small effect.
    In fact, I would restrict Wild horde to WildBoyz and GoretBoyz (even squiggoths have cannons). And maybe nobz. But that's a bit extreme ;)
    Maybe allow special cards (in particular the MegaSquigoth) for them. But maybe not the gargants...
    No mekboy card for WildHorde : I agree

    Now how are we fixing the Mobs and BP/VP rule?
    Mobs of the same unit type from the same clan form into big mobs, yes?
    BP and VP for each support card adds to the total BP and VPs for the clan as a whole and the whole clan breaks when the total BP is reached, but each mob takes separate morale checks. ?VPs are only awarded when the whole clan is broken. ?This is the way things worked under the old SM2 system and I think is the way it should work now (its the way I always assumed it worked).
    When reading the rules, I thought that extra boyz where added to the company card, because there already were boyz there, but that tanks will form an independant mob (in term of VP/BP).
    But I really like your interpretation. The rules should be clearer.

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    Ulmo
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:25 pm 
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    (zap123 @ Aug. 27 2007,15:13)
    QUOTE
    KoS - should make it one Buggy Mob in keeping with new rules. ?Should they get 5 Mekboy slots like the old days?

    2 mobs when appreciated (one for each side), but a second KoS isn't that expensive. And more coherent rules is a good point. I vote for only 1 mob.
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    scream
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:37 pm 
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    If this can help, here are the original profiles for cyberwyvern from Citadel Journal:

    page 1
    page 2
    page 3

    Pics uploaded by me but original scans by WolfEyes (epic_fr member) many thanks for his great job!




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    Juffo-Wup
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:10 am 
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    Repeat after me : If Gork and Mork wanted orks to fly, they would have given us wings.
    That was in the SM2 rules, and that's why the CyberWywern were introduced later as an optional unit.
    So I'm not against allowing flyiers, as many gamers have Fighta-Bomba, but in my opinion they should stay limited.
    And Copter too should be a Mekboy unit (technology is harder than for planes).

    But dey did want us to fly.  Dey gave us rokkits an' katapults an' big enginz an' ramps an' fings.  Stormboyz iz da best evidunce dey wanted us to fly.  Iffn dey didn't want us to fly den whys we got all dees 'ere rokkits an' fings den? ;-)

    When the Fighta-Bomma rules were first written all those years ago (I'm pretty sure I was the one wrote them), it seemed fun to make them MekBoy units for a bit of flavour.  Things have moved on since then and I don't think its such a good idea any more.  Why should the Orks have their flyer numbers restricted in such a severe way when no other army has the same restriction?  In the current fluff they are just another common Ork unit like the Wartrukk, Battlewagon and Bonebreaka.  They're a fairly average flyer and certainly not a game-breaker.  Keeping the Fighta-Bomma as a Mekboy unit means the Bomma should be one too and that places a massive restriction on the number of flyers the Orks can use, severely impacting their air cover.  Now under the new flyer rules this isn't such a huge issue but frankly its still a pretty significant weakness in an army that already has its fair share.

    'Copter units as Mekboy cards is a great idea and I'm all for it.  Being the proud owner of some new 'Copters I checked their rules and was surprised by how good they are.  Orky skimmers should be restricted.

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    Juffo-Wup
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:06 am 
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    Some additonal thoughts on the Fighta Bommas issue:

    If the overwhelming consensus is to keep the flyers as Mekboy units, then I propose the following new Ork card:

    Mekboy Flyboyz (Special Card, Mekboy Card)
    2 Fighta-Bomma Skwadruns (3 Fighta-Bommas each)
    1 Bomma Skwadrun (3 Bommas)
    Cost: 700pts; BP: 5; Morale: 4; VPs: 7.

    This gives an Ork player the chance of fielding a decent number of Flyers but they give up a precious Special Card slot to do so (and if you play Orks like I do, Special Card slots are most precious indeed).

    Also, I'd like to propose the following new unit to celebrate the new Ork Bombers released by Forgeworld, who look so awesome I think they deserve their own rules (plus it gives people the chance for some cool scratch-building):

    Ork Blasta Bomma
    Flyboy Meks often feel a little jealous of their ground-based cousins who get to build mighty constructs such as Stompas and Gargants. ?As a result, they will sometimes get together to build Blasta Bommas. ?While each Blasta Bomma is a unique creation, like Mekboy Gargants, they all share common features. ?These massive flyers seem to defy the laws of physics by staying in the air when all good science says they should drop like rocks. ?Armed with the best weapons the Meks can scrounge they are flying fortresses that can level entire companies of enemy troops. ?It is a terrifying sight for ground troops to see a Blasta Bomma screaming in for the attack with guns blazing and bombs falling.
    When unloading its payload of bombs, the Blasta Bomma may drop them at any point along its movement. ?When dropping the bombs, place the model where you want it to drop the bombs and then place the 6cm template touching the base of the Blasta Bomma. ?Scatter the template 2D6cm and roll a D3, this is the number of additional templates generated. ?Each extra template much touch the first template. ?The number of Barrage Points for the bombs is determined by rolling the Artillery Die. ?A roll of 2 to 10 is the number of BPs for the templates for this attack. ?If you roll a ?Misfire? then the BPs count as 10 for this attack but the Blasta Bomma has run out of bombs and may not drop them for the rest of the game. ?After dropping its bombs, the Blasta Bomma may continue its movement.

    Move: 60cm; Save: 1+; CAF: +2; Flyer, Superheavy, Special

    Weapon ? ? ? ? ? Range Dice To-Hit Save Notes
    Blastacannons ? 50cm ? ? 4 ? ? ?5+ ? ?-3
    Big Shootas ? ? ?25cm ? ? 6 ? ? ?5+ ? ?-1
    Bombs ? ? ? ? ? ? Special ?2-10 BPs ? -1 ? ? ?Damages Buildings

    Blasta Bomma (Special Card, gives 2 Mekboy cards)
    1 Blasta Bomma
    Cost: 500pts; BP: Model; Morale: -; VPs: 5




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    zap123
     Post subject: Ork stuff
    PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:40 am 
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    I like the Blasta Bomba a lot.  I'll add it as is unless there is dissent.

    On the "is it a clan", I dissagree that the KoS is not a clan.  If nothing else this could lead to rediculous and broken armies with 3-4 KoS maxed out with Warbikes and Nobz bikes.  I'm ok with the Wildboyz Horde not counting.

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