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Drop Pods again and again
darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:46 pm 
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so tell me why you get no -1 to hot roll if you snap fire at drop pods while they are falling from the sky!

imagine:
it is the same firing at a box standig in front of you and firing at a box falling from the sky???...i tried it with an airgun in the garden...guess wich situation was more successful?!
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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:04 am 
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(darkangel @ Aug. 01 2007,14:46)
QUOTE
so tell me why you get no -1 to hot roll if you snap fire at drop pods while they are falling from the sky!

imagine:
it is the same firing at a box standig in front of you and firing at a box falling from the sky???...i tried it with an airgun in the garden...guess wich situation was more successful?!

come on, do not let me alone with this discussion! I think we have to talk about it, because on the one hand we have to be careful not making the pods to strong on the other hand we have to keep the logical sense!

I have never played drop pods in game but I am going to do so next game. And I am sure, that not only one pod will arrive on ground saftly. there are so many units on FF (preatorians, floater,besides HQ units and units which you give always FF because of their long weapon range) and if these units do not get the -1 to hit roll for snap fire, pods are an easy target...and the enemy is very thankful getting 8 VP (Scouts+pods)...and do not forget, it makes sense to get -1 to hit roll, because: 1) the came absolutly unprepared for the enemy and 2) they are fast falling objects.

so let us discuss the situation with pods and find a solution!
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loofnick
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:08 pm 
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hey kai,

I suspect  this one needs to be played before deciding. difference from flyers, is that they are only available for shooting in the air for one turn, and typically come in large numbers, all at once- so much less opportunity to shoot at them all.  I'm not saying the rule 'makes sense' but is it unbalanced?

Also bear in mind that not everyone is going to play your massive (and I guess crowded) games, and so won't have so much to shoot at them with.

I haven't used them with netepic rules either.  If you were to change them, you might have to give them less armour to re-balance them?  See what you think when you've tried them.
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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:44 pm 
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(loofnick @ Aug. 03 2007,13:08)
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hey kai,

I suspect ?this one needs to be played before deciding. difference from flyers, is that they are only available for shooting in the air for one turn, and typically come in large numbers, all at once- so much less opportunity to shoot at them all. ?I'm not saying the rule 'makes sense' but is it unbalanced?

Also bear in mind that not everyone is going to play your massive (and I guess crowded) games, and so won't have so much to shoot at them with.

I haven't used them with netepic rules either. ?If you were to change them, you might have to give them more armour to re-balance them? ?See what you think when you've tried them.

hi nick,

two questions first:
1) do you know if any model which has a line of sight to the pods can fire at pods regardless of his fire-arc? or doesn`t a pod count as an object in line of sight if the pod is not in the fire-arc?

example:
can a land raider (fire-arc 180 to the front) fire at a pod when the pod falls behind him?

2) first i have to declare the landing zone, right? then i determine a landing point and I scatter this point two times, right? let us imagine that this point is 24 cm out of the table, because i declared the landing zone near by the table edge. now i can put the landing point anywhere within 20 cm of that pont, right? usually i put the new poit as close as possible back to the table edge. now I am just 4 cm away from the rescuring table, you can follow? now the pod scatters again to a max of 12 cm. so if i am in luck, the pod could land 8 cm back on the table...now it is your turn!?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

i do not think, that the pods would be to hard to beat even if you would use the normal snap fire rule for moving objects.

imagine that you only have to hit a pod, the save of 4+ is a party for the enemy.  usually you shoot with -1 or -2 tsm weapons at pods and even infantry has a good chance to destroy he hole scout company inclding the pods!

who made this special rule to drop pods? it is the only model in the hole game which is not played to the snap fire rule! did somone make bad experiences by fithing against pods?

I agree with all new rules to drop pods...in sm2 they were for free. in sm2 there was no snap fire and so no one could fire at them at all...but i think that the normal snap fire rule should apply to them
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loofnick
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:16 pm 
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1) no, never ever ever ever. absolutely not.  The line of sight thing is meant to indicate that terrain that would normally be in way can be ignored. It's not properly worded in the rule.
2)hmm.. there is a lot of scattering going on.  Your example is a bit extreme though- aiming for the very edge of the table! In practise you have to play safe- aiming 30cm from any edge- you might get a few individual pods landing off-table, probably not many. again really wants trying. it sounds reasonably inaccurate- as they should be in my opinion, it's all part of the drop pods charm. If you want accuracy, get flyers!

so compare with thunderhawks:

T'hawk: 4+ armour, only 3 objects to shoot at but more opportunities to hit them, good weaponry of it's own, absolute accuracy of landing - 300pts in all

Drop Pods: 4+ armour, 16 objects to fire at with only one turn to fire at while in the air but no to hit penalty, arguably similar firepower (support and deathwind pods), inaccurate landing, unreliable opening of pods, and a very useful increase in break points for the troops- for 300 pts as well.

Personally I think the main difference is reliability of landing versus better break points.  Seems pretty fair.  I suppose the -1 to hit might be added, and drop pod saves dropped to 5+.  It would be about the same effect, but more consistent with flyer rules? But 5+ seems weak for drop pods   :(  The main thing is that the rule should work, so I don't much care if the penalty to hit would be more realistic.  So try them, if they work then don't worry about it.

EDIT ahem.. being a stupid before.. as drop pods can be shot at on the ground, changing them to 5+ armour is probably a bad idea.
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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:56 pm 
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(loofnick @ Aug. 03 2007,17:16)
QUOTE
1) no, never ever ever ever. absolutely not. ?The line of sight thing is meant to indicate that terrain that would normally be in way can be ignored. It's not properly worded in the rule.
2)hmm.. there is a lot of scattering going on. ?Your example is a bit extreme though- aiming for the very edge of the table! In practise you have to play safe- aiming 30cm from any edge- you might get a few individual pods landing off-table, probably not many. again really wants trying. it sounds reasonably inaccurate- as they should be in my opinion, it's all part of the drop pods charm. If you want accuracy, get flyers!

so compare with thunderhawks:

T'hawk: 4+ armour, only 3 objects to shoot at but more opportunities to hit them, good weaponry of it's own, absolute accuracy of landing - 300pts in all

Drop Pods: 4+ armour, 16 objects to fire at with only one turn to fire at while in the air but no to hit penalty, arguably similar firepower (support and deathwind pods), inaccurate landing, unreliable opening of pods, and a very useful increase in break points for the troops- for 300 pts as well.

Personally I think the main difference is reliability of landing versus better break points. ?Seems pretty fair. ?I suppose the -1 to hit might be added, and drop pod saves dropped to 5+. ?It would be about the same effect, but more consistent with flyer rules? But 5+ seems weak for drop pods ? :( ?The main thing is that the rule should work, so I don't much care if the penalty to hit would be more realistic. ?So try them, if they work then don't worry about it.

EDIT ahem.. being a stupid before.. as drop pods can be shot at on the ground, changing them to 5+ armour is probably a bad idea.

you are right. first i will trie them in praxis, then we can go on with our discussion, ok?

but back to my example:
so a vehicle can not shoot at drop pods, when they fall in the back of him, right?
that is the reason, why i will drop them near by the table. i think that my enemies will place their units near by the set up zone to get closer to me and bring their weapons in range. that is the chance for me to drop the pods behind their line. and if my pods hit the landing point or scatter only to the side, then my enemies could not fire at them, because the pods are not in the weapon fire-arc, except by 360 degree weapons, right?
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loofnick
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:39 pm 
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yes, normal fire-arcs should apply. same as they have to against flyers, or ground targets.  Actually the wording is okay- it talks about line-of-sight requirements only, not fire arcs.

but when your pods die in your next game, I do think it will be because you play such a large game- they may just not be practical on a crowded table.  anyway.. we will see..
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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:31 pm 
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(loofnick @ Aug. 03 2007,18:39)
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yes, normal fire-arcs should apply. same as they have to against flyers, or ground targets. ?Actually the wording is okay- it talks about line-of-sight requirements only, not fire arcs.

but when your pods die in your next game, I do think it will be because you play such a large game- they may just not be practical on a crowded table. ?anyway.. we will see..

and so do I think! none of my pods will reach the ground in one piece, because of a mighty firepower!

but I do not think that this will happen because of our army mixing. every single army can include mighty firepower although the squats could be the most dangerous.

so I keep my opinion to apply the snap fire rule to drop pods...but perhaps our next game will disabuse me?
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zap123
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:50 am 
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We've already debated this one extensively with DA before.  Basically, no one shares his enthusiasm for making Drop Pods more effective than they already are.  They are scary good already and any change to make them less vulnerable would have to be accompanied by a recosting and extensive playtesting.....for something others consider fine and balanced now.  

No -1 for shooting them!

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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:40 am 
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(zap123 @ Aug. 04 2007,03:50)
QUOTE
We've already debated this one extensively with DA before. ?Basically, no one shares his enthusiasm for making Drop Pods more effective than they already are. ?They are scary good already and any change to make them less vulnerable would have to be accompanied by a recosting and extensive playtesting.....for something others consider fine and balanced now. ?

No -1 for shooting them!

yes zap you are right, they could be to strong...and after our next game if none of my 16 pods will reach the ground i can tell you if you was right.

tell me zap, do you have any experiences with pods in praxis? how many pods arrive in the averange?
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zap123
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:12 am 
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Oh, I have had plenty of experience with Mycetic Spores.  On average if my opponent plays them well, and he usually does, I might get to shoot down 2-3 out of every ten.  I then usually have to spend 2 full turns cleaning up the annoying pests he's dropped into my backfield with units that should more properly be killing big stuff.  Most of the time his 200 points tie up 4-500 points for 2 or more turns.  I have had more than enough experience of Drop Pods back when they were a free upgrade to last forever.

As noted by yourself, you and your friends play an extreme variant of the game, so you have got to expect some things to not be in balance.  I suggest you either agree to a house rule among your friends or stop using Drop Pods because they are too vulnerable when you  are facing 12000 points of opposing army.

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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:54 pm 
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(zap123 @ Aug. 04 2007,11:12)
QUOTE

yes you are right, our game principle could be a shame for my pods...and nick was right, i will see and feel it the next game to get the praxis test...either I will use them game by game or I will sell them on ebay and use thunderhawks instead!

but i am hopefully that my enemy will place the units near by the set up zone so there is a chance that the pods land behind them...after the scatter procedure...we will see and will report it.
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darkangel
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:12 pm 
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(zap123 @ Aug. 04 2007,03:50)
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hi zap, please tell if i can do so next game:

first i have to declare the landing zone, right? then i determine a landing point and I scatter this point two times, right? let us imagine that this point is 24 cm out of the table, because i declared the landing zone near by the table edge. now i can put the landing point anywhere within 20 cm of that pont, right? usually i put the new poit as close as possible back to the table edge. now I am just 4 cm away from the rescuring table, you can follow? now the pod scatters again to a max of 12 cm. so if i am in luck, the pod could land 8 cm back on the table...now it is your turn!?

there is nothing in the rules which describe the situation if a temorary scatter point is away from the table..right? it is possible to do so, even if it is not probably, right? the finishing landing point is on the table!
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zap123
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:53 pm 
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yup, I follow, and you have it all correct I think.  There is no specific rule to cover if things scatter off the table for Deep Strike, so I would put them back on the table edge where they crossed the line....so yes, I agree with your interpretation.

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primarch
 Post subject: Drop Pods again and again
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:54 am 
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Hi!

Would it be worthwhile to include these clarifications?

I think so.

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