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NE6 Revision: Core Rules

 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:53 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
You'd need to retain forward observers for the Eldar since they don't have HQ units. Same possibly for Chaos although I know some units have Champions.


Hi!

This begs the question, SHOULD these guys have HQ/command units added to the respective companies?

In 1st edition they did, Warlocks as Eldar command and champions as chaos command.

I never understood why they made formations without command in these armies, it makes no sense in comparison with the rest of the system and army.

I for one would propose to add them back into those armies.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:59 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
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I think adding air companies would be helpful, my main thought right know if how many "air mission" orders does a army get to issue in a turn? As many as needed? One per company? Another ratio, like per points?

I think the ratio of one air mission order per company "may" be good. I don't necessarily agree that mission orders should be that "plentiful". Some rationing of them can lead to interesting and fun decision making if there aren't enough orders to go around and the player must prioritize.

You could even have them degrade as companies are broken and command and control suffers.



At first I read this as limited activation (which I hate BTW). As far as limiting the number of "air mission" orders, I could see it being per Card. If companies come to pass, then I wouldn't think that a commander would suddenly peel off fighters from the bombers they are escorting, however I could see a support card of fighters escorting in a few transports and peeling off once the drop happens, joining the air superiority fight while the transport starts providing CAS or strafing.


Hi!

I view in the view that the assigning of air assets occurs at a certain level of command, so for every company your force has you can issue one air mission order. If the companies break then you lose one from your total pool. Its basically a resource management system.

If you want it the quick and dirty method, then just issue orders and it is not tied to anything (basically the same as ground unit orders, issue as many as you want). This is the simplest method, so perhaps just go with that.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 10:10 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
primarch wrote:
I've been thinking for some time in eliminating the forward observer and funneling all that into the HQ/command units. Increase their cost and get rid of redundant units. Thoughts on that?

The problem with restriction of operation missions is if you don't have any eligible missions, what do you do with those fliers? Unless one of the missions is generic enough to offer something to do most of the time.

Also, isn't it easier to just have all missions available instead of making lists of restrictions for armies or specific types of aircraft?

The 3 order structure in each air mission type is relatively easy to remember, I just wonder if restrictions are worth the time investment, or if people will even use them. Perhaps a default of all missions and an alternate option of restriction?

Primarch


So much to respond to and think about and today is going to be a bit busy from a work perspective, so let me hit a few quick things

Forward Observers - I could take or leave them. From a game perspective, can we make them do a bit more to add flavor? Indirect fire? I definitely could see giving the F.O. Ability to HQ by default and adding in Forward Observers for Armies that are HQ light. I also still like the possibility of an HQ aircraft/AWACS/FAC type thing. and this could make that a simpler drop in.

Missions - How do you feel about the role based missions being considered "In theatre" and generic Missions being considered "Out of Theatre", in a similar fashion to what I laid out in my response to Mangus? 2 or 3 orders based on "Role" and 3-4 "Generic" orders (they don't all have to be "out of theatre" either. "Buzz 'round in circled and bomb 'em" would be a perfectly acceptable generic order!

I guess I get hung up on the details in a few ways, I mean could a Fighter/Bomber perform Transport/Air Drop Missions? On the other hand, Why couldn't you have a T-Hawk Dust off and start strafing?

What were your ideas for pruning? Was it along the lines of what I put put there?

Air Companies - I can argue both sides of this, TBH. I guess my main point is that anything done rule-wise should provide a framework and guardrails for future creativity and therefore be open. I know that my main goal here is to fix the orders framework and thus the utility and balancing of fliers, without making it too much of a metagame. I just know that since the thunderbrick was introduced, fliers haven't worked and at this point the cat is out of the bag.


For now, I would love to see a bit of brainstorming on the role specific orders. When my week frees up, I will do a re-write and post it up, in a more structured fashion.


Hi!

By pruning I mean that it may not be necessary to use the 3 order types per operational air mission, but just give two options in each bracket.

Going one further, why use the standard orders at all? If we are making order counters for fliers, then what not just make those order counters and define what they can do?

I suspect people just like using one order anyway, it would actually be 4 orders counters like the ground troops (dropping that command related air mission one). Let me think more about the options you originally posted and post a revised list with my recommendations.

As for the command related air missions. I quite honestly would add those functions to the HQ/command as an ability. In other words they could do the stuff they always do OR (not and or in addition to) concentrate their command and control on the air theatre.

Basically I would make HQ's like other special units with multiple abilities where they can use ONE per turn. Will you post for artillery? Move and shoot? Or direct air missions? You would have to choose. Much better than now where all they are is a glorified "charge move/first fire" unit.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 11:01 pm 
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Hi!

This is what I would suggest based off of madmagician's system.

Air units can choose one of 4 air mission orders:

1. Air superiority
The goal is to control the airspace over the battlefield. The level of flight is high in the clouds. Ground fire may not target fliers on such orders. AA may fire upon them normally.There are two options a flier with this order can choose from
a. Dogfight- flier starts at owning players table age and flies in a straight line towards enemy fliers and fights in the close combat phase. As the flier moves in it may be fired upon by AA batteries or intercepted.
b. Combat air patrol. Fliers move in from owning layers table edge and "station" it self anywhere over the battlefield. It can automatically choose to engage any fliers that enter its CAP "zone". They may be intercepted (flying through someone else CAP zone) as well as fired upon by AA batteries.

CAP "zones" can be a flat number (for all armies) or variable by army list. My suggestion would be a flat radius of 25cm (50cm diameter). Easy to remember.

2. Close Air support
The goal is to engage enemy ground forces or provide aerial firepower. This type of engagement represents low level flying, so fliers can benefit from terrain cover. However they are open to ground fire ( -1 penalty from non AA units). AA units are particularly effective against such low flying aircraft and may re-roll (second roll stands). The benefit for fliers on these orders is that being so close to the targets increase their accuracy (Re-roll misses, second roll stands) There are two options to select from:
a. Combat air support- fliers may enter through any side EXCEPT the opponents side of the table (may enter through sides). The flier may linger on the battlefield and engage any targets within the range of its weapons (may split its weapon attacks amongst eligible targets). May be intercepted or fired upon by AA.
b. Strafe run- Enters through owning players table side and in a straight line will choose ONE detachment sized formation as the target of the strafing run. All weapons MUST target the selected formation. Once attacks are finalized it will continue in a straight line and exit the opponents table edge. May be intercepted or fired upon by AA.

3. High Altitude Bombing (operational bombing)
The goal is to soften the enemy up before a ground assault or attack. Its "safer" than close air support, but not as accurate. Given the higher altitudes, ground fire that is not designated as AA may not engage. AA may engage normally with no modifiers to the roll to hit. There are two options

a. Carpet bombing- the fliers may enter any table edge except the opponents table edge. It may engage ground targets from high altitude within the range of its weapons. May linger on the battlefield and may be intercepted or fired on by AA.
b.Strafe Bombing- fliers starts at owning players able edge and goes into a straight line to attack one company sized formation. Once attacks are resolved it flies off the battlefield through the opposing players table edge.

Tactical Transport
The goal is to transport ground assets to key battlefield points. The flier is flying in NOE (nap of the earth) so may use terrain as cover. There are two options:

a. drop and run- the flier enters the table as if possessing the "deep strike" ability and may deploy ground assets at any point of the descent. Note that ground assets MUST be equipped with jump packs, flight packs or other method of rapid deployment to be able to disembark from a flier on these orders. Once deployable assets have disembarked it may fly off the table in a straight line through the nearest table edge.

Fliers on these orders may NOT fire their weapons, however given they are flying evasively ground fire from non-AA troops may not target them. AA may target them but if they do so during the descent (before deploying) then have a -1 penalty to hit, if they engage them after deployment (trying to leave the table) they fire at them normally. Fliers on this order may NOT be intercepted by other aircraft (to quick in and out of the theater of operations).

b.Drop landing zone- flier starts from any table edge except the opposing players table edge and fly in a straight line to the designated landing zone. Flier may be intercepted or fired upon by AA. Since it is flying low and evasively it may use terrain as cover. AA does not gain advantages of firing on fliers at lower level.

Once close to the designated landing zone, it may choose to land and deploy assets. Before landing it may fire all its weapons at targets within range. Fliers at the moment of support fire and landing are very vulnerable to ground fire, so all ground units may fire at the transport (unlike when it is in route). AA DOES receive the re-roll against such a flier on these order, but only at the moment of firing or landing (in route it does not).

Once assets are deployed, it may linger over the battlefield and support fire.

The things mentioned as "forward air control" I would give directly to command units as an ability to use.

Pick it apart now and discuss. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:27 am 
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My initial read through likes it and I think it also directly addresses Magnus's concern about airpower. AA or Fighters WILL be a requirement if your opponent brings air power, but that is not really a problem in my eyes.

I would look potentially to limit the amount of air power that can be purchased, since Epic is not really an aerial game overall. Maybe make the limit 1 Aerial company with full support and Special complement for an upper bound of 10 ish models? Totally an arbitrary number, I know.

Let me read through a few more times.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:08 am 
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That could work, but I've really just skimmed it as my thoughts are with Hit Locations at the moment.

I still don't like the "orders" a model gets giving it Special Abilities that the model does not possess, but I guess a cost could be added to applicable models to cover that.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:58 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That could work, but I've really just skimmed it as my thoughts are with Hit Locations at the moment.

I still don't like the "orders" a model gets giving it Special Abilities that the model does not possess, but I guess a cost could be added to applicable models to cover that.


Understood. When you free up some brain cycles, can you provide more explanation about your special ability concern?

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:19 pm 
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That *should* be fairly simple. Three things.

Command Models should not receive orders. Why have specific roles (IE orders) give a Command model abilities that it does not have outside of that role? Why not just simplify the issue and give the abilities to the models and let them act however the player wants them to? They are Command models after all, players should not be required to give them a form of orders to be able to utilize their Special Abilities.

Points cost. Assigning a points cost to an ability that a model does not have, but would be able to use IF the player decides to give that model that role, would be tricky at best and impossible at worst. It would depend on the situation at hand during a battle and the player's plans, neither of which a points formula can predict.

Most Special Abilities, including those in the roles above (Forward Observer and Combat Leader) are not ones that are or can be turned on or off. They are just there or they are not there. Saying that a model can now use an otherwise persistent ability because the player decided to use the model in a certain way breaks the game IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:55 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
My initial read through likes it and I think it also directly addresses Magnus's concern about airpower. AA or Fighters WILL be a requirement if your opponent brings air power, but that is not really a problem in my eyes.

I would look potentially to limit the amount of air power that can be purchased, since Epic is not really an aerial game overall. Maybe make the limit 1 Aerial company with full support and Special complement for an upper bound of 10 ish models? Totally an arbitrary number, I know.

Let me read through a few more times.


Hi!

Actually, I am coming around to Magnus' point of view on "no air companies", since limiting them to support or special cards provides an already existing mechanism for limiting air power.

Also, the system provides for one side not having actual air power (using just air defense) and being able to defend its air space.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:00 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That *should* be fairly simple. Three things.

Command Models should not receive orders. Why have specific roles (IE orders) give a Command model abilities that it does not have outside of that role? Why not just simplify the issue and give the abilities to the models and let them act however the player wants them to? They are Command models after all, players should not be required to give them a form of orders to be able to utilize their Special Abilities.

Points cost. Assigning a points cost to an ability that a model does not have, but would be able to use IF the player decides to give that model that role, would be tricky at best and impossible at worst. It would depend on the situation at hand during a battle and the player's plans, neither of which a points formula can predict.

Most Special Abilities, including those in the roles above (Forward Observer and Combat Leader) are not ones that are or can be turned on or off. They are just there or they are not there. Saying that a model can now use an otherwise persistent ability because the player decided to use the model in a certain way breaks the game IMO.


Hi!

I may not have explained myself clearly on the point regarding command units and extra abilities. They require no orders, I only thought that as a balance mechanism they are permitted to either use their ground based abilities (forward observer stuff) or thier air command abilities in a given turn (not both in the same turn).

Of course it may be a baseless worry and free use of both during a turn may not mean lack of balance.

As for cost, they already exist for forward observer, make it an ability and "tack"it on the command/HQ cost. Perhaps use that same "valuation" for the air command and add that as well for the "full" value of a command/HQ unit.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 1:47 pm 
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Primarch wrote:
Hi!

Actually, I am coming around to Magnus' point of view on "no air companies", since limiting them to support or special cards provides an already existing mechanism for limiting air power.

Also, the system provides for one side not having actual air power (using just air defense) and being able to defend its air space.

Primarch


I would agree as well, Air Companies were an interesting thought exercise but nothing compelling there for me (too meta).

I am really happy with the way you have put the ideas into form here. I would like to see the general feedback from the community. My gut feeling is it goes a long way to balancing aircraft. With a bit more polish, we can hammer out with Magnus how to price things. In most cases it feels like AA may be strong enough to provide Air Denial if deployed correctly, it keeps the models on the table and its not too complex.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:02 pm 
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madmagician wrote:
Primarch wrote:
Hi!

Actually, I am coming around to Magnus' point of view on "no air companies", since limiting them to support or special cards provides an already existing mechanism for limiting air power.

Also, the system provides for one side not having actual air power (using just air defense) and being able to defend its air space.

Primarch


I would agree as well, Air Companies were an interesting thought exercise but nothing compelling there for me (too meta).

I am really happy with the way you have put the ideas into form here. I would like to see the general feedback from the community. My gut feeling is it goes a long way to balancing aircraft. With a bit more polish, we can hammer out with Magnus how to price things. In most cases it feels like AA may be strong enough to provide Air Denial if deployed correctly, it keeps the models on the table and its not too complex.


Hi!

I will try to present the clean up version of this to the other groups for general feedback.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 9:48 am 
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primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
You'd need to retain forward observers for the Eldar since they don't have HQ units. Same possibly for Chaos although I know some units have Champions.


Hi!

This begs the question, SHOULD these guys have HQ/command units added to the respective companies?

In 1st edition they did, Warlocks as Eldar command and champions as chaos command.

I never understood why they made formations without command in these armies, it makes no sense in comparison with the rest of the system and army.

I for one would propose to add them back into those armies.

Primarch


I wouldn't have a problem with this. It goes without saying though that the Warlock cost in particular would have to be factored in. I actually think a lot of players might be more inclined to take Hosts with Guardians if they came with a Warlock that didn't count as a Special Card.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:25 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
You'd need to retain forward observers for the Eldar since they don't have HQ units. Same possibly for Chaos although I know some units have Champions.


Hi!

This begs the question, SHOULD these guys have HQ/command units added to the respective companies?

In 1st edition they did, Warlocks as Eldar command and champions as chaos command.

I never understood why they made formations without command in these armies, it makes no sense in comparison with the rest of the system and army.

I for one would propose to add them back into those armies.

Primarch


I wouldn't have a problem with this. It goes without saying though that the Warlock cost in particular would have to be factored in. I actually think a lot of players might be more inclined to take Hosts with Guardians if they came with a Warlock that didn't count as a Special Card.


I never understood the point of making some armies' companies commandless. I would welcome it back.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 Revision: Core Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 7:02 pm 
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I agree with this as well. :)

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