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ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
zap123
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:38 am 
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Yup, seperate orders are ok, but they still have to maintain coherency if they are the same unit.  Specifically stated (Special Rule - Troops and Transports - p10 ).  

Transports should have to maintain coherency if they are part of the same unit...coherency is a fundamental part of the game.  You would have the unrealistic situation of Rhinos dumping troops then haring off and capturing objectives, ramming tanks, doing wheelies etc.  At what point are they allowed to break coherency?  Only after dropping off troops?  At setup?  In fact you'd get the situation where you could buy a neat Defender Warhost and have your Falcons over behind the buildings and the Guardians can move up independantly so they can capture an objective or move into range without endangering the tanks.......

In this case the unit is broken, not the rules.

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loofnick
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:02 pm 
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Surely with the present flyer rules, maintaining coherency is impossible- the moment the flyers move they have to move half their base movement (30cm), so the troops can't keep-up.  Further more, the troops are stuck next to the grounded flyer.  Totally immobolising each other.

Either the flyers have to be separate detachments within the company, or need changing to skimmers (like in Epic A.; though it seems odd for an aircraft).


Shouldn't all aircraft, Termites and Moles be independant?  Maybe I've missed some rule(s) somewhere?
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OzTenaka
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:03 pm 
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Prob easier to break the company into 4 Detachments

3 x Troops and 1 x carriers

as it is now the flyers have to do silly things to maintain Coherency with the Infantry in same unit.

or to remove the carriers altogether and make the Airborne Company a Paratrooper based unit.

Deep Strike them in. Paratroopers already have stats in the Optionals book and are just a continuation of the Stormtrooper

15cm +2 CAF 25cm 1 4+ -0 Elite Deep Strike Jump Pack

6 in a unit for 175 so company would be 450-500 with a command group
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loofnick
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:11 pm 
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1 detachment of all the Valkaries makes a very scary 11 Valkarie unit!  I wouldn't like to be on the recieving end of that one.  :D   Also means the whole company must stay together, which goes against their lack of chain of commandness.

Regards using the Paratroopers.  This doesn't make use of any released model; seems better to include standard Stormtroopers to make use of the available models.

I suppose you could Deep Strike Stormtroopers, but assume they use parachutes, or an advanced equivillent?  But is their any fluff to go with it?

Might I suggest either:

1. a Stormtrooper Company without HQ's  or Commisar (since the troops don't need them [and it screws up this suggestion] ) with 3 sets of 3 Valkaries as separate detachments.  (Having the HQ's and Commisar just makes for 2 unnecessary detachments of Valkarie)

2.  just use the present optional listed Stormtrooper Company and let the player buy Valkaries as support cards.

3. as 2. except add an appriopriately sized Valkarie Company (but what would that be? Detachments of 1,3,3,and 2  ??? )

I prefer 1. myself- simple, flexible and no excess flyers larking about.
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zap123
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:08 am 
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(loofnick @ Mar. 27 2007,23:11)
QUOTE
1 detachment of all the Valkaries makes a very scary 11 Valkarie unit! ?I wouldn't like to be on the recieving end of that one. ?:D ? Also means the whole company must stay together, which goes against their lack of chain of commandness.

You can buy a detachment of 5 of them already.....11 is just two detachments and a friend. ?Scary 11 Valkyrie unit would cost 500+ points (and a lot of $ ) and they aren't really that scary at all.....fast, poorly armored Chimeras.

I think breaking the Storm Troopers and Valkyries into two Companies (with seperate detachments) solves all the problems without the need to change rules (I think), and is therefore probably the best option. ?Loofnicks' option 2 is probably better still :)

If the Storm Troopers have Independant it makes them about the only really good choice, but making the Valkyrie company a special that only they can buy would be better.

Deep striking Paratroopers should stay in the options book.




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primarch
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:25 am 
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Hi!

Good points all. I think the easiest solution is to separate the company cards as in option 2 in the previous post. That way you take the infantry you want and then just add transports separately.

No new rules, no clarifications no ambiguities.

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zap123
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:29 am 
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yeah, good call.

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OzTenaka
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:10 am 
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So solution is :

Stormtrooper company (as per Optionals book) to replace Airborne Company

Create a Special Card (or Company Card) of Valkyries that would attach to Stormtrooper company if desired.
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loofnick
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:00 pm 
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Another issue:  Tunnellers

Hellbore, Mole and Termites descriptions should refer to using the Tunneller Rules, not the Deep Strike Rules-  the Tunneller Rules cover them entirely.  Also, referances to Tunnellers should be removed from the Deep Strike rules in the Core Rule book.

These will also effect the Squat tunneller units (same types).  I don't know if other armies have any tunnellers.

I still can't find any refernce to Mole & Termite Platoons having some independance.  Has this rule been dropped?  If it has it restricts you to using Tunneller Support Cards with Mole or Hellbore Companys.

In original Space Marine 2nd Ed rules the Mole or Termite Section HQ acts as Company HQ but only for the platoon they transport (ie. may give orders to the infantrys own Section HQ when within 25cm).
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zap123
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:57 pm 
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The companies both get a HQ unit so you dont absolutely need Independant.  Just rechecked Armies of the Imperium.

- Hellbore has no special rules about command....the Hellbore acts as Company HQ.  Only allowed Moles or Termite support cards.
- Mole acts as a relay to Regimental HQ, so as long as its troops are within 25cms of the Mole they can be given orders.  It is not a HQ unit though.  Can be taken as support by any Company.
- Termite - same rule as above for the Section HQ Termite.

Giving Moles and Termites Independant would do an ok job to reflect their old abilities I guess.

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loofnick
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:41 pm 
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I agree, nothing wrong with the companies.  Support cards bought for other companies are the problem.  Were those rules from Netepic 4?  I didn't see that in my copy.

Suggest either:

1.  Mole, and Termite become Independant and desciption should have a line added "Termite/Mole Platoons are Independant." making it clear it applies to the troops as well.  
1b Should it be just for Support Cards? Or only ones taken by non-tunneller companies.

2.  reinstate the relaying rule in full.  Which lets the infantry move a little further away from the slow-moving Termites, but is a more complex rule.

Given either 1 or 2 does the Mole Company need a commisar?

Use 2 if that was in the old Neteic rules, and just got missed.  Otherwise 1 seems simplest.
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zap123
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:15 pm 
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2. Is from the SM2 Armies of the Imperium rulebook.

I also just had a d'uh moment....really need to add some Arbites to the PDF list while we have the chance, and now we have the minis :)

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loofnick
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:05 pm 
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(zap123 @ Mar. 28 2007,15:15)
QUOTE
2. Is from the SM2 Armies of the Imperium rulebook.

doh!  :blush:  sorry, that's what I was looking at as well.  For some reason I didn't notice that it had the same name as the netepic v4 book.
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primarch
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:10 am 
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(OzTenaka @ Mar. 28 2007,06:10)
QUOTE
So solution is :

Stormtrooper company (as per Optionals book) to replace Airborne Company

Create a Special Card (or Company Card) of Valkyries that would attach to Stormtrooper company if desired.

Hi!

Correct.

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: ADEPTUS MILITARIS LIST Rules Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:14 am 
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Hi!

I'm kinda confused is the tunneler issue resolved?

What needs to be clarified/changed?

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