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Is it possible to win with Orks?!!

 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:53 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That's illegal, as to enter Close Combat one must move directly to the target in as straight a line as possible.


Could you indicate me the page in the Gold Rule Book where it's stated ? I'm really interested in reading this rule.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:17 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
It occurs to me that the Eldar player cheated. You said that the Titan ran past and around the Gargant to engage it in Close Combat from the rear (though how that affected the shields, I don't know). That's illegal, as to enter Close Combat one must move directly to the target in as straight a line as possible.

More than any other Faction (except possibly Guard), one has to expect and even plan for taking losses when playing Orks. It's just their style. Yes, they can win, but as said above, their playing style is different from other armies. This would be apparent if you read the fluff, but since you don't, I can see how you'd miss it.


The way I read it I don't think the Warlock Titan engaged the Gargant in combat, he charged at the Gargant but went past it / round it, and turned to shot the Gargant in the rear.

I also assume that Bissler is using the Plasma generation rules (or the evolution rules?) which means titans have the opportunity of moving double speed and firing. This seems to have caused him several problems given the mention of the Warhound with Inferno guns in another topic.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:23 pm 
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scream wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That's illegal, as to enter Close Combat one must move directly to the target in as straight a line as possible.


Could you indicate me the page in the Gold Rule Book where it's stated ? I'm really interested in reading this rule.


I couldn't find anything regarding moving straight, in fact on page 19 it says:

"Moving and Turning
Models may turn as often as desired during movement. At the end of movement the model must face the direction of travel but may make a 45° correction. This is generally only important to vehicles and weapons with a restricted arc of fire."

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:40 pm 
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Hi!

In Net epic evolution, titans can "charge move" and fire (also using alternate plasma generation rules). So the titan can move swiftly past the enemy titan and unload from behind.

For eldar titans this is a standard tactic using the multiple alternate rules. If they don't move they don't get a holofield save and the slower they move the save is less effective. For them movement is life... or death.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:59 pm 
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In fact, I was interested in knowing if we had to charge in a straight line directly toward enemy when engaging in CC as my close combat warhounds often turn around enemy tanks to finally engage them in their back :P


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:09 pm 
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scream wrote:
In fact, I was interested in knowing if we had to charge in a straight line directly toward enemy when engaging in CC as my close combat warhounds often turn around enemy tanks to finally engage them in their back :P


What does that accomplish though? CAF isn't affected if you fight in the front, sides or rear?

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:15 pm 
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Yes, as pointed out above, and to clarify, we were playing using the new Titan Plasma Generation rules which grant Eldar Titans the ability to charge & first fire. The Eldar Titan didn't engage the Gargant in CC but did use charge move to run past the Gargant then spin around (Eldar Titans are agile) to use its firepower to strip the shields and start inflicting damage upon the hapless Gargant.

The problem I'm having with the Orks isn't so much the heavy casualties I am taking as much as the difficulty I am having in capturing objectives and inflicting losses on my opponent. I fully expect to take heavy losses, the high Break Points tell me that in themselves without any need to consult the fluff. In fact, the main reason I have been losing games it is because I have been unable to hold any more than two objectives in any given turn. Even while the body count went through the roof, my Ork mobs have proven resilient and have rarely broken.

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Yes, they can win, but as said above, their playing style is different from other armies. This would be apparent if you read the fluff, but since you don't, I can see how you'd miss it.


I don't know if I am being over-sensitive or if I am completely misinterpreting the intention of your post, but this comes across to me as being incredibly patronizing*.

In any event, my understanding of fluff is that it provides the reader with Tolkien ripped off inspired background information on the 40K universe. I wasn't aware that it contained strategic tips as to how to field and best play your Epic armies. However if you have some fluff that will tell me how to win Epic battles with Orks, I'd be happy to read it.

*The dictionary definition of "patronize" is: "to treat in a condescending manner." Annoying, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
scream wrote:
In fact, I was interested in knowing if we had to charge in a straight line directly toward enemy when engaging in CC as my close combat warhounds often turn around enemy tanks to finally engage them in their back :P


What does that accomplish though? CAF isn't affected if you fight in the front, sides or rear?

Matt


True but when you charge some Land Raiders that are on first fire, if you charge them on the back, they can not use the lascannons to fire at you due to their 180° front arc of fire... They only can try to snap fire at my warhounds at -2 before they make their bypass move ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:26 pm 
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scream wrote:
Mattman wrote:
scream wrote:
In fact, I was interested in knowing if we had to charge in a straight line directly toward enemy when engaging in CC as my close combat warhounds often turn around enemy tanks to finally engage them in their back :P


What does that accomplish though? CAF isn't affected if you fight in the front, sides or rear?

Matt


True but when you charge some Land Raiders that are on first fire, if you charge them on the back, they can not use the lascannons to fire at you due to their 180° front arc of fire... They only can try to snap fire at my warhounds at -2 before they make their bypass move ;)


I must admit, I've always played it that you have to take the most direct route into combat. I don't know where this comes from, but I suspect it was either from an earlier edition of the rules or *ptoo* 1st edition 40K.

I do think playing it that you must take the most direct route into CC is a good thing as it means that troops charging at enemy vehicles can't get behind the enemy's fire arc. Sorry Scream, but while I can see the logic in what you are doing, that feels a little like gamesmanship to me. That's just my personal opinion, no offence intended!

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:33 pm 
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I have to agree with Biss there Scream, that seems like poor form. Pure cheesing of the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:36 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Cheers Legion, the firepower from those mobs did seem good but fortune did not seem to smile upon me! I shall try not to give up on my little green friends!


Shoot, Shoot and shoot again ... "Fortune favors the bold" ... even if they are GREEN ! ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:53 pm 
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I agree that's quite hard but as far as my opponents do the same, it's not a problem in my player group.

Forbidding this kind of move would result in endless discussions during games.

Examples:

- I have a building, on the right side, 3 land raiders on first fire, on the left side, a detachment of bikes on charge order. Bikes have to turn around the building to engage the LR in close combat. Do you choose to engage Land Raiders in their front or in their back ?

- I've seen in many games flyers moving straight forward until being behind my titans, stopping and making their 180° last turn to target the reactor and being out of its arc of fire... ::)

While there's no rule stating that you have to charge your opponent in a "straight line" and while my opponents are OK and do the same, that's not a real problem...


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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:05 pm 
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If everyone is agrees then there is no problem. Whatever works for each group is always the best way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:12 am 
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Ork Command question: It doesn't say in the rulebook that Ork Warbosses and Warlords can command Orks just like Nobz* although obviously they can (anything to the contrary seems absurd). But what about Gargants? They have to be bought as leaders at some point, but should they be able to command Boyz?

I don't think they should, but I need someone neutral to sort this argument for me please!

*I know that Warlords/Warbosses have Command, HQ, and Elite abilities just like Nobz. So far as I can tell, none of these abilities seem to have anything to do with actually ordering troops though.

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 Post subject: Re: Is it possible to win with Orks?!!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:31 am 
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Warboss and its nobz can command ork troops, after all, a warboss/warlord is a super-nobz so boyz will respect him and follow his orders ;)

In SM/TL, Gargants could give orders to boyz, IIRC this was dropped in Netepic but many ork players would like to see this rule back.


Last edited by scream on Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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