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Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Kotrin

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:47 am

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(zap123 @ Sep. 17 2007,01:13)

QUOTE

(...) I did the maths before in one of the previous threads and wont bother to repeat it in full, but a Heirophant is about 2.5 times harder to kill than a Warlord at far less cost. A simple version using Falcons, no scatter, shooting at Heirophants Legs and Warlords Reactor, and an average roll of 3 shows 20 Falcons will statistically kill a Warlord, and it would require 48 Falcons! Add in its' awesome Close Combat ability with the vastly improved defenses titans get in close combat and you have a clearly unbalanced piece.

Sure, Bio-Titans are resilient against enemy firepower, but that's what they are for after all. It's not intuitive, but Bio-Titan must be dealt with in Close Combat. I don't like your example much because you ignored the second effect of shooting titan's legs, halving its CAF to +7 for a Hierophant (and even +5 for a Hierodule, less than a termi stand.)

Imagine a unit with a 1+ fixed save and a CAF of +3. Would it be over-powered? Hardly. Yet, an infinite number of Falcons would not scratch the paint.

Why on earth Bio-Titans should be only destroyed through shooting?

Yeah, sure some armies can configure their own Close Combat titan to have some chance at killing one (a pair of Slashers with dual Ripper Fists and a Snapper also do fairly well), but a lot of armies have no chance. I don't think the introduced changes "neuter" bio-titans but merely make them slightly easier to kill. The introduced changes would make no difference to the above (clearly artificial) scenario for instance. If we swapped the Falcons for Prism Cannon (Pen +1) the Warlord is still dead after 20, but the Heirophant drops down to "only" 39 Prism Cannon.

I'd like to know what are those armies that "stand no chance" against a Bio-Titan.

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zap123

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:22 am

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Squats have nothing that can pin one except Praetorians and some slow moving Superheavies, none of which can go close to matching a Heirophant in Close Combat. ?Ripper Tenticles.

A Slann army's best option is Knights with a CAF of +4. ?A bio titan with Ripper Tenticles eats them. ?Their Titans have no Close Combat weapons and speaking from experience their 1000 point Razorfang cannot drop a 650 point Heirophant before it is engaged in close combat, which it will almost certainly lose.....and the Heirophant then attacks the Reactor and Bridge hitting both with +2!

Same comments as above apply to virtually any Imperial Titan that has not been explicitly tooled up to go Hand to Hand (ie at least 14 CAF and 2 Close Combat weapons). ?At least they have the option....if you know you are playing Bugs.

I've never seen a Tyranid vs. Ork game, and Gargants have some of the same advantages as Bio-Titans, but I think Orks will have some difficulty unless they go with tooled up Close Combat Gargants. ?At least the Bio Titan is not as likely to kill a Great Gargant in a single round.

Exodite, PDF and Frateris are just plain screwed. ?Tau and Dark Eldar will have to rely on shooting (Tau are very good at it though!)

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Kotrin

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:24 am

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Your reply made me scratch my head.

Squats have no problem dealing with Tyranids, it's rather the other way around. Thanks to their high break point and excellent floaters, (Air Corps), Squats give little victory points to Tyranids (unless the squat defense line really crumbles).
Regarding super heavies, Squat have little to fear: always firing in the First Fire segment means that a Tyranid Bio-Titan is very likely to be damaged before CC start, and we all know how easy it is to cut a Biotitan's leg. Think of a Wrecker, but for all Squat ranged weapons. In fact, I think most Bio-Titans circle around the 10cm "kill zone" of every Squat Praetorian not to be engaged by them - and cut down.

Perhaps Dwarf Supreme could tell us if he has so much problems dealing with Tyranids? Methinks not.

Regarding other armies, there is a basic problem: those lists are not standard ones, but NetEpic creations. In other words, their supposed weakness regarding Tyranid list is their respective creators' issue, not Tyranid army's, and should be addressed in those respective army lists, not while changing tyranids. Otherwise, I can also claim that we should give no more than 2 void shields to every Titan and Praetorians in NetEpic because my Xublorgs, a race I just designed, have trouble dealing with them. :confuse:

Finally, you wrote:

Same comments as above apply to virtually any Imperial Titan that has not been explicitly tooled up to go Hand to Hand (ie at least 14 CAF and 2 Close Combat weapons). At least they have the option....if you know you are playing Bugs.

I wonder how many people really don't know what army they are going to face... But even in a tournament environment, it's part of the game. I may claim that we should allow void shields to be downed by light arms fire because otherwise my IG tactical company is unable to scratch that Reaver. In the anti-Tyranid tactics thread I gave sample titan builds that are extremely effective against Bio-Titans and yet still retaining an excellent firepower.

You know, I've been a proud member of NetEpic community so far, but the way Tyranid list now gets shafted without remorse is really disturbing. I can recognize when a unit is obviously too good for its points (Wind Rider Host comes to mind) but I never felt that way for Bio-Titans nor for the Tyranid list as a whole.

Now, with those regenerations limitations, not only Bio-Titans are neutered, but Dominatrix too. And don't get me on the penetrating giving a bonus to get a critical. Perhaps it "makes sense", but it also throw any sense of balance through the window. What are Tyranids supposed to to against a Titan wielding two or three Volcano Cannons or a Colossus? NetEpic rule changes have introduced a number of restrictions over the years (infantry gang up against a Titan, for example) and they have seriously weakened the Tyranid list.

People advocating changes (= restrictions and limits) on the Tyranid list should play them a bit more. I'm not telling we should put the Tyranid on the Endangered species list, but seriously, this army is not a threat anymore.

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mm1145

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:11 pm

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having been playing with bio titans since 1998/9 there are is one thing I would like to contrubiute to this rule descution in my house rules the penatrating +x weapons not only add that roll to ther damage rolls but cause that meny extra woulds to mulit wound creatures this (eg. a volcano cannon would cause 4 woulds) restores the roll of large guns to large creature killing and seames they are not that meny weapons with this anti titan roll and not that meny multi would crteatures it dose not over power them

as for the over arguments I have been playing with (for over 5 years)
a downed creature can be shot at with a +1 modifer (it may still be alive but it is not able do doge and duck it is on the ground wriving in pain) but it can be ignored for the purposes of target selection a downedc creature can be assultred an close combat buit only gets it's basic caf( it is is no condition to put up a cornadated fight) but if they lose any stands are killed ( I asume that it has automatic spor clists or the atackers got in the way of a flayling lim or somthing) and in the end phase it rolls one dice for each wound and on 4+ it is removed if it is left with more wounds then itr can coupe with it is dead!!

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Kotrin

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:30 pm

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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am
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Good suggestion. I prefer that on a bonus to get a critical in the first place.

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Ulmo

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:32 pm

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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:32 am
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Just to know, who complained against tyranids ?
I only heard darkangel, and he played very special games (4vs4 with tyranids getting some allies, regenerating Harridan, All synapse were command units, ...).
Napalm played tyranids and said his bio-titans were far from unkillable. I'd like to have more opinions from people who have played with/against tyranids. Sure they look fearsome in the rule book, but that's intended.

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mm1145

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:44 pm

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(Ulmo @ Sep. 17 2007,13:32)

QUOTE

they are fearsome for the cost but you must rember in order to win you have to vertuley wipe out the whole of the opants army so each point of nids must be able to take out 1.5 of a opents

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:26 pm

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(Kotrin @ Sep. 17 2007,06:24)

QUOTE

Perhaps Dwarf Supreme could tell us if he has so much problems dealing with Tyranids? Methinks not.

Actually, when playing my Squats against Tyranids, I do have a really hard time killing Bio-Titans. I've learned that ignoring them is usually the best course of action and concentrating on breaking broods to get the VPs is a better way to go.

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darkangel

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:58 pm

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(Dwarf Supreme @ Sep. 17 2007,15:26)

QUOTE

and so did we too...playing the old rules the only way to handle bio-titans was to ignore them...

last time we played against tyranids to the old rules we gave the bio titan 22 wounds. i would say near 6.000 points fired at him to cause that wounds...he regenerates 10 wounds in the end phase and played a card which regenate 1d6 extra wounds...he rolled a 5, so he was back in game with 7 wounds...and now the bad joke: we had no more firepower to shoot the other 2!!!!! bio-titans titans!

of course, due to the new rules the situation i described above could happen again...but perhaps you do not need 6.000 points firepower to cause 22 wounds any more...

so i think it was the right way to change the rules to get the chance to beat that unbeatable bio-titans!

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Kotrin

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 pm

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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am
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Perhaps it's also just a matter of luck too, like when you destroy a Phantom titan on your first shot. Believe me, I've also seen tyranids players rolling plenty of 1,2 and 3 for their regeneration attempt, and 6 of the 8 wounds inflicted remained. In that story the bio-titan was toasted rather pitifully on turn two.

I guess we should at most rely on statistics at best instead of dumb luck / lack thereof when discussing rules and units in general.

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zap123

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:02 am

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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:47 am
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Location: Brisbane, Australia

(Kotrin @ Sep. 17 2007,11:24)

QUOTE

Now, with those regenerations limitations, not only Bio-Titans are neutered, but Dominatrix too. And don't get me on the penetrating giving a bonus to get a critical. Perhaps it "makes sense", but it also throw any sense of balance through the window. What are Tyranids supposed to to against a Titan wielding two or three Volcano Cannons or a Colossus? NetEpic rule changes have introduced a number of restrictions over the years (infantry gang up against a Titan, for example) and they have seriously weakened the Tyranid list.

People advocating changes (= restrictions and limits) on the Tyranid list should play them a bit more. I'm not telling we should put the Tyranid on the Endangered species list, but seriously, this army is not a threat anymore. ?

Actually, I have both played and (mostly) played against a Tyranid army quite a bit using NE5 rules (and I have 8 Bio-Titans), and also played Tyranids a lot back in SM2 days. ?They are far more powerful now.

NetEpic rule changes have seriously weakened the Tyranid list?

?In NetEpic a Titan is basically immune to anything smaller than a Knight in Close Combat....and a Tyranid Titan with Ripper Tenticles is basically immune to anything smaller than a Praetorian! ?The Tyranids as a whole have got a fantastic additional 10 strong swarm unit, more Synapse options, AA, a more flexible construction system and invulnerable Titans.....and they are weaker how exactly? ?I assume you meant Cyclops for the Penetrating argument....hmm, Agile superfast Bio-Titan lets itself get shot by a Cyclops then it takes the risk.....and even the best shot wont have any chance of killing it outright, yet I've killed Reavers with a single Cyclops shot....how is that unfair to the Tyranids?

I have similar experiences to Darkangel and Dwarf Supreme....under the standard NE5 rules I fired basically an entire Doom Anvil company at a Heirophant and did 5 wounds. Don't underestimate the power of their template to make hits scatter and miss either. That a Hellfury does 1 wound is kinda silly really. The same 1400 point company would have toasted a Warlord in the same situation.

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darkangel

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:39 am

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(zap123 @ Sep. 18 2007,01:02)

QUOTE

you are absolutely right zap!

the tyranids and their titans are still hard to beat even if penetraiting weapons cause more damage now.

and by the way, so can count the number of penetraiting weapons in game with just one hand...

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Kotrin

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:31 am

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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:44 am
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(zap123 @ Sep. 18 2007,01:02)

QUOTE

NetEpic rule changes have seriously weakened the Tyranid list?

Some changes affect resilience of Bio-Titans but you forgot that Tyranids face Titans and Prateorians too and have to bring them down. They can't just pile up on objectives like other armies do.

When I was writing about a weakening of Tyranid list, I was evoking:
- the penetrating bonus to get a critical on a BioTitan, weakening it.
- the "one regeneration attempt" for wounds weakening seriously both BioTitans and Dominatrix
- Reduction of the effectiveness of Regeneration card, which was originally removing ALL wounds from a creature (and AFAIK, 1D6 means 3.5 on average, with as many chances to roll a 1 than a 6.)
- the unability for infantry to gang up against a large target, weakening Tyranids as a whole.

You are quick to point out that point #3 makes BioTitan more resilient, but you forgot that Tyranid army list is mostly assault infantry and its options are now seriously limited, because the rule affects Tyranid opponent as well, with greater benefits.

Please, don't claim that Bio-Titans are unkillable, in light of recent changes such statement is ridiculous. The six ablative wounds of a Warlord titan - I'm speaking of its void shields here - are regenerating on a 4+ with no attempt limit and it poses no problem to anyone. And frankly, I wonder why we still give two psychic powers to a Dominatrix since it's obvious it now has to use warp field the entire game.

Let's take an example. Suppose I create an anti-tyranid titan build (2 chain fists, CC head/tail, and two ranged weapons). The beast can overcome any BioTian and, because of NetEpic rule, can't be swarmed by infantry or light vehicles either.

How Tyranids are supposed to bring it down?

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Ulmo

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:45 am

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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 12:32 am
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(zap123 @ Sep. 18 2007,01:02)

QUOTE

I have similar experiences to Darkangel and Dwarf Supreme....under the standard NE5 rules I fired basically an entire Doom Anvil company at a Heirophant and did 5 wounds. Don't underestimate the power of their template to make hits scatter and miss either. That a Hellfury does 1 wound is kinda silly really. The same 1400 point company would have toasted a Warlord in the same situation.

I think that tyranids must be more powerful for their cost, because they have to kill more units as they don't get objective points. That also why Tyranids can't get allies : this would give powerful units to an army which could take objectives. This can explain why darkangel has so much difficulties against tyranids.

It seems that bio-titan are designed to be killable in CC, and shots could be only used to rip legs (for halving CC). Example : a paladin or errant detachment can kill one bio-titan with some survivors to take objectives, and has a similar cost.
But this only applies to armies with knights. I don't know how squats can CC it.

Also, bio-titans are not warlords, with a reactor in front of them. You have to shoot at them to inflict wounds and not necessary looking for a critical hit. Their armor is not that high, and they can receive many wounds by units with a small TSM. So Cyclops aren't the best units to use.

(Kotrin @ Sep. 18 2007,09:31)

QUOTE

Let's take an example. Suppose I create an anti-tyranid titan build (2 chain fists, CC head/tail, and two ranged weapons). The beast can overcome any BioTian and, because of NetEpic rule, can't be swarmed by infantry or light vehicles either.

How Tyranids are supposed to bring it down?

I would say using some Hive Queens/Razorfex. Or maybe a bunch of exocrine to shoot the reactor. Tyranids should adapt their tactics too

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scream

Post subject: Regeneration and Multiple Wounds

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:08 am

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(Kotrin @ Sep. 18 2007,10:31)

QUOTE

I would say...take 3 ripper tentacles on a hierophant...run and engage the opponent, block the CC head (it's a close combat weapon no ?) and the 2 chain fists, CC Warlord warlord is reduced to its base CAF +14 like the bio-Titan...if the bio-titan wins the close combat, it will roll in damage table for the CC head, the chain-fists and another location let's say reactor. With a +2 for each damage roll, even if you only roll some 1 in damage tables both arms will be destroyed,if the head is not destroyed, Titan CAF will be halved and reactor will cripple...even with the worst dice rolls in damage tables, the titan is no more usable...

Against praetorians, such a Bio-Titan will remove 3D6 from praetorian CAF and will roll damage (+2 modifier) dices in 4 locations...But versus Praetorians, I think that 2 rippers tentacles and 1 razor claw (for the bridge) should be enough to destroy it...

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