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superheavy damage table...
scream
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:39 pm 
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In the "Ammended Flyer Rules" close to this thread ;) or just here

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darkangel
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:59 am 
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(scream @ Jul. 26 2007,16:39)
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In the "Ammended Flyer Rules" close to this thread ;) or just here

so you do not need AA or infantry on first fire anymore to shoot at floaters? all kind of units can shoot them? i would say, that this is very hard for the squads because the overloard is reduced to a normal vehicle except by adding 25 cm?!

and what about drop pods? i would say that all units get the -1 to hit penalty when they are faling except by AA, too! or you can shoot at them when the have still landed but then they could smash something before!
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darkangel
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:24 pm 
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(primarch @ Jul. 25 2007,02:42)
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Hi!

Tyranid creatures don't get to use the super heavy table because they have wounds and the combination would be too good.

Primarch

hi primarch,

i have one question due to the harridan and the cost value:

in sm2 the harridan cost 150 points and he could not regenerate wounds in netepic he can regenerate wounds and he still cost 150 points! do you think that this is ok? i think it is a great difference if you can regenerate wounds or not and if i look at the cost for overloards or the chaos firelord then i would say the cost for a harridan should be about 250-300 points, too!

you know, netepic has icreased the cost for land raiders but the statistics stayed the same, netepic has increased the heavy tank cost but the statistics stayed the same...so i do not understand why the cost for harridan stayed the same?
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primarch
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:45 am 
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(darkangel @ Jul. 30 2007,13:24)
QUOTE

(primarch @ Jul. 25 2007,02:42)
QUOTE
Hi!

Tyranid creatures don't get to use the super heavy table because they have wounds and the combination would be too good.

Primarch

hi primarch,

i have one question due to the harridan and the cost value:

in sm2 the harridan cost 150 points and he could not regenerate wounds in netepic he can regenerate wounds and he still cost 150 points! do you think that this is ok? i think it is a great difference if you can regenerate wounds or not and if i look at the cost for overloards or the chaos firelord then i would say the cost for a harridan should be about 250-300 points, too!

you know, netepic has icreased the cost for land raiders but the statistics stayed the same, netepic has increased the heavy tank cost but the statistics stayed the same...so i do not understand why the cost for harridan stayed the same?

Hi!

Since we are changing the flyer rules to allow more liberal targeting I think, for now, it is a good idea to leave the cost as is.

If under play test conditions it seems too good for the price we can increase it.

Primarch

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darkangel
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:53 am 
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(primarch @ Jul. 31 2007,01:45)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jul. 30 2007,13:24)
QUOTE

(primarch @ Jul. 25 2007,02:42)
QUOTE
Hi!

Tyranid creatures don't get to use the super heavy table because they have wounds and the combination would be too good.

Primarch

hi primarch,

i have one question due to the harridan and the cost value:

in sm2 the harridan cost 150 points and he could not regenerate wounds in netepic he can regenerate wounds and he still cost 150 points! do you think that this is ok? i think it is a great difference if you can regenerate wounds or not and if i look at the cost for overloards or the chaos firelord then i would say the cost for a harridan should be about 250-300 points, too!

you know, netepic has icreased the cost for land raiders but the statistics stayed the same, netepic has increased the heavy tank cost but the statistics stayed the same...so i do not understand why the cost for harridan stayed the same?

Hi!

Since we are changing the flyer rules to allow more liberal targeting I think, for now, it is a good idea to leave the cost as is.

If under play test conditions it seems too good for the price we can increase it.

Primarch

ok, please give me a feedback when you tried it under play situation. that is the reason why i ask for this because now we know the praxis playig against harridans.

we tried it on sunday.12.000 points each side. eldar, marines, guards and squats against chaos, orks and tyranids. 12 hours and 4 hours discussion, due to the harridan!!!! ok, we played to the old flyer rules (so only our overloards and thunderer and devastator in the second round could shoot them with FF) but 7 harridan for 1050 points was hard. you must give them at least 7 wounds to destroy them for shure. at the end of round 1, we hit 5 harridan to the ground (only overloards could hit them) with 4 and 5 wounds all came back with 2 and 1 wounds left. and in the end of round 2 again. now 6 harridan on the ground with 5 and 6 wounds. 3 came back.

so we shoot at them with 1400 points overloards, 1000 points devastator, 600 points thunderer to destroy 3 harridan for 450 points.

what i want to say is it is an absolut difference if you can regenerate wounds or not. and if gw gave them in sm2 a 150 points cost then i think they did so because they could not regenerate wounds. know you get 2 harridan for 150 points because they come back round by round....by regenarating wounds.

and by the way, show me another unit in the hole game which has the floater ability, has wounds, can always act as an comand unit, can infiltrate and the troops inside too, you can take as much as you want because they are a kind of "company" in the tyranid army structure....i did not found one for 150 points!
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zap123
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:54 am 
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All Flyers/Floaters are broken to some extent under the rules printed in the NE 5.0 rulebook. ?Using the new rules I think you will find Harridans aren't that big of a concern. ?They do certainly look like pretty decent value for money.

If you keep using the old rules, remember they are slow and a juicy target for your fighters and you do a wound for every point you beat it by in CC....Doomwings really shred Harridans!!! ?Our local 'Nid player doesn't dare bring them.  

Would be an excellent idea to let you keep attacking a "dead" multi-wound creature in CC too (they dont get to roll dice)....then you could really mash them!




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darkangel
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:49 pm 
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(zap123 @ Jul. 31 2007,07:54)
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All Flyers/Floaters are broken to some extent under the rules printed in the NE 5.0 rulebook. ?Using the new rules I think you will find Harridans aren't that big of a concern. ?They do certainly look like pretty decent value for money.

If you keep using the old rules, remember they are slow and a juicy target for your fighters and you do a wound for every point you beat it by in CC....Doomwings really shred Harridans!!! ?Our local 'Nid player doesn't dare bring them. ?

Would be an excellent idea to let you keep attacking a "dead" multi-wound creature in CC too (they dont get to roll dice)....then you could really mash them!

hi zap,

first, 3 doomwings cost 250 points, a harridan 150!!! if i attack a harridan in CC then first he can fire (4 times with tsm -3) before CC begins or some other harridan in the back can shoot before with snap fire. I can not CC the harridan if lying on the ground, because he regenerate in the the end phase and he is back again before I can charge him next turn. the only way to CC him lying on the ground is, if i first shoot at him with snap fire, he is down and i have some units left to move in CC. All in all, I think the harridan is ok now with the new floater/flier rule, because every one can shoot at him, but i do not think, that 150 points for him are fair at all! and i understand our squat player, because a fight overlord against harridan is absolutly fair and we have not found any reason why an overlord cost 250 and a harridan 150!!!

and remember, you have increased so many units points (gunship, land raider, drop pods) although their statistic have not changed but on the other side you keep the harridan cost, why? we do not understand it!
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Juffo-Wup
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:49 am 
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(darkangel @ Jul. 31 2007,12:49)
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first, 3 doomwings cost 250 points, a harridan 150!!! if i attack a harridan in CC then first he can fire (4 times with tsm -3) before CC begins or some other harridan in the back can shoot before with snap fire. I can not CC the harridan if lying on the ground, because he regenerate in the the end phase and he is back again before I can charge him next turn. the only way to CC him lying on the ground is, if i first shoot at him with snap fire, he is down and i have some units left to move in CC. All in all, I think the harridan is ok now with the new floater/flier rule, because every one can shoot at him, but i do not think, that 150 points for him are fair at all! and i understand our squat player, because a fight overlord against harridan is absolutly fair and we have not found any reason why an overlord cost 250 and a harridan 150!!!

and remember, you have increased so many units points (gunship, land raider, drop pods) although their statistic have not changed but on the other side you keep the harridan cost, why? we do not understand it!

Well, you can't shoot the Doomwings on First Fire as the Harridan's weapons are not AA, so they cannot shoot at Doomwings at all.  I don't believe they are Turreted or 360degree arc weapons either, so they cannot shoot at the Doomwings under the proposed new rules.  Therefore, Harridans are ripe targets for interceptors from all races, particularly the Doomwings.

Plus many units were re-costed under the new rules as they were far too cheap under the original SM2 rules (Land Raiders and THawk Gunships are prime examples).  Not everything was recosted though.  The Harridan was felt to be fairly priced at 150pts and so remained the same.  If you have good arguments and comparisons please make them (but I would recommend starting a new thread).

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zap123
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:29 am 
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(darkangel @ Jul. 31 2007,12:49)
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first, 3 doomwings cost 250 points, a harridan 150!!! if i attack a harridan in CC then first he can fire (4 times with tsm -3) before CC begins or some other harridan in the back can shoot before with snap fire. I can not CC the harridan if lying on the ground, because he regenerate in the the end phase and he is back again before I can charge him next turn. the only way to CC him lying on the ground is, if i first shoot at him with snap fire, he is down and i have some units left to move in CC. All in all, I think the harridan is ok now with the new floater/flier rule, because every one can shoot at him, but i do not think, that 150 points for him are fair at all! and i understand our squat player, because a fight overlord against harridan is absolutly fair and we have not found any reason why an overlord cost 250 and a harridan 150!!!

and remember, you have increased so many units points (gunship, land raider, drop pods) although their statistic have not changed but on the other side you keep the harridan cost, why? we do not understand it!

As Juffo-Wup pointed out under the current rules the Harridan is pretty much at the mercy of enemy Fighters...particularly DoomWings and Lightnings that out CAF it.  Last time I played against one I had the perfect result where the first DW beat it by 2 points, and the second one slammed it for another 9 wounds  :D

I also think it's kinda hard to say an Overlord and a Harridan are even....the Overlord has a lot more firepower than a Harridan, has 360 degree arc and can always First Fire....I'd say it is very easy to explain why it is 250 and the Harridan 150!

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darkangel
 Post subject: superheavy damage table...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:43 am 
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(zap123 @ Aug. 01 2007,03:29)
QUOTE

(darkangel @ Jul. 31 2007,12:49)
QUOTE
first, 3 doomwings cost 250 points, a harridan 150!!! if i attack a harridan in CC then first he can fire (4 times with tsm -3) before CC begins or some other harridan in the back can shoot before with snap fire. I can not CC the harridan if lying on the ground, because he regenerate in the the end phase and he is back again before I can charge him next turn. the only way to CC him lying on the ground is, if i first shoot at him with snap fire, he is down and i have some units left to move in CC. All in all, I think the harridan is ok now with the new floater/flier rule, because every one can shoot at him, but i do not think, that 150 points for him are fair at all! and i understand our squat player, because a fight overlord against harridan is absolutly fair and we have not found any reason why an overlord cost 250 and a harridan 150!!!

and remember, you have increased so many units points (gunship, land raider, drop pods) although their statistic have not changed but on the other side you keep the harridan cost, why? we do not understand it!

As Juffo-Wup pointed out under the current rules the Harridan is pretty much at the mercy of enemy Fighters...particularly DoomWings and Lightnings that out CAF it. ?Last time I played against one I had the perfect result where the first DW beat it by 2 points, and the second one slammed it for another 9 wounds ?:D

I also think it's kinda hard to say an Overlord and a Harridan are even....the Overlord has a lot more firepower than a Harridan, has 360 degree arc and can always First Fire....I'd say it is very easy to explain why it is 250 and the Harridan 150!

I do not think that the overlord has more firepower then the harridan. if we ignore the secondary weapons I would say that the primary weapons are in balance: overlord hit 6 times with tsm -2 and harridan 4 times with tsm -3. ok, the overlord can alway shoot on FF and has a table but I think this is in balance too, because the harridan has wounds and the ability infiltration and just this ability is genial. in the last game our tyranid player could place his hole gargoyles in houses 15 cm away from our set up zone!!!

to the CC with doomwings: ok, you are right, if we play to the new rules the harridan could not fire at fliers (but by the way, why not? walkers on the ground can and units in the air not???) but i have to take 3 doomwings for each harridan to charge them down. so gain 3 doomwings for 250 points and a harridan for 150. I think the harridann should cost at least 200 or 250 points, too! and do not forget, he can take as much harridans as he wants, because the harridan is a synapse creature! and can you tell me how the harridan can throw his bombs while flying? can he turn right, left to throw them were he wants or must he fly a straight way?

back to the fact:
the harridan cost 150 points in sm2 without regenerating wounds! now he can and cost the same! it is against the netepic line if i compare this situation with the land raider or thunderhawk. and do not forget that you have increased this cost although their statistics have not changed! think it is/was right to increase that points but in my opinon you lose the plot if you ignore it and as a result you ring hollow.
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