WAR ENGINES:
The Squat Army List has often been described as "Kinda like Steel Legion, with a bit more artillery, oh and some honkin' huge War Engines instead of Titans."

So let's talk about those War Engines for a moment. If we are going to do a final polish on the Thugrim list we may as start here:

Squats have four true ‘war engines’* that are all built along the same lines: A giant gun-covered cube the size of a city block that rumble along that all pretty much have similar characteristics:

1) They're tough (about in the in the same weight class as a Reaver Titan)
2) They're shooty (bringing most of the hurty MW and TK shots in the army)
3) They're slow.

The question we have to ask is:

What roles do the War Engines bring to the army, and do they fill said roles in a balanced way?

I think the issues are best brought up in a post by Onxy




(Emphasis added by me)

The concept of the Thugrim list is rooted in the idea that is should provide a play style as close to the original 2nd Edition Epic Squat rules that was released with the original miniatures. I think that this philosophy has merit as it is a concept that brings a little bit of legitimacy to a list that is struggling to find said legitimacy. Before Moscovian started pushing the Thugrim list, the Squat fan base was split into many wildly different lists that were all espousing the concept of what squats should be.
This has lead to the army list being a little ‘weird’ as a lot of design choices have been ‘grandfathered in’ from the original second edition list.

Onyx is right in that in that one of the weaknesses is that there is a fair amount of overlap in each one.


*I'm aware that the Overlords are a War Engine, but they are so different that tehy deserve a post of thier own .

Let's talk: Colossus!




Analysis:
The Colossus is the war engine that players have the least complaints about. It’s the middle of the road, jack-of-all-trades war engine that good either rolling forward to support the front line with Fearless and decent FF, or sitting back and shooting with long range AT battle cannons and MW Doomsday cannons – something that the rest of the list lacks. It has no unusual rules and will usually be a ‘safe’ pick for any squat player.


Reaver Comparison:
It’s weapons load out is best represented by a Reaver with
Doomsday Cannon - 3 BP, MW Quake Cannon - 3BP MW
Battle cannons/ Thunderer – 5 x AP4+/AT4+- Gatling Blaster – 6 x AP4+/AT4+-
Plasma Missiles – 8BP One Shot Barrage Support Missile? – 10 BP Disrupt, One Shot?

It's a pretty reasonably load out. It has armament that's tough, fairly long ranged and useful in 90% of situations.


Issues:
There isn’t much to complain about the Colossus – perhaps the fact that the Plasma Missiles interfere slightly with the Doomsday Cannon’s Macro Ability? It’s alleviated with the fact that the Missiles are one shot so you can use them against a single large infantry squad that doesn’t need MW.

Likelyhood of any changes
Nobody has ever indicated that the Colossus is anything but fine, so I can't see any proposed changes to the 1.5 list. Good Job Colossus. You just keep doing your thing there.

Fun Fact
The original release of the Colossus back in 2nd Edition packaged it with a single Iron Eagle Recon Copter. The rules allowed it to use the copter as a 'spotter' allowing it to fire indirect. This is the source of the current 'Spotter' rule and the reason the model has a helicopter landing pad on the back of it.

Let's talk: Cyclops!




Analysis:
If the Colossus is just three Baneblades duct-taped together then the Cyclops is the same relation to the ShadowSword. This War Engine is designed for A) Titan Killing and B) Not much else. The Doomstorm missiles are there just to strip shield so the Hellfury Cannon can TK the unshielded Titan. The Cyclops will kill a Warhound a turn, and Reaver or Warlord will be taken down in two.


Reaver Comparison:
It’s weapons load out is best represented by a Reaver with
Hell Fury Cannon TK (D6+1) 2 x Volcano Cannons - 2 x TK (D3)
Doomstorm Missiles – 6 x AT2+ One Shot- Turbo Laser Destructor? – 4 x AP5+/AT3 +- (That was a bit of a stretch)

This weapon load out is kind of extreme - if it has the chance to shoot at a Titan (and doesn't roll a 1) then it has a good chance to turn said titan to slag.


Issues:
The only issue with the Cyclops is that it falls into the same catergory as Deathstrike Missile Launchers. If the enemy army contains big titans it will perform spectacularly. If the opposing army contains no big targets then the HellFury cannon is wasted picking off a single small tank per turn. I often feel like a bit of douche when melting titans so easily. It fits in really well in larger 4,000 point and up games though.


Likelyhood of any changes
1)There is a slight movement to make the tank a little less "all or nothing" against titans by broadening it's use. Such suggestions are making the main gun 2 x TK(D3) or perhaps increasing the battlecannon allowing the cyclops to better deal with numerous tank mobs. I am unlikely to pursue this as it goes against a lot of the original flavour of the 2nd Edition Cyclops

2) Secondly there has been some calls to strip "Indirect Fire" from the missiles, as they have a useful role is wiping out tanks from across the board. I see the merit in this, but Iam not 100% convinced on this change as it will focus the Cyclops's role even more narrowly on 'one-shot titan killing' where as at the moment I often use the missile abilities to alpha-strike a Deathstrike or pick off that last straggler tank in turn 4


Pew Pew! Goodbye Tyranid Biotitan!

Fun Fact
The original 2nd edition FAQ had a question which was simply asking "Am I reading the rules right? Is the Cyclops really that good at killing Titans?" To which Jervis was very much "yes indeed!"

Let's talk: Land Train!




Analysis:
The Land Train is the Squat’s first and most iconic War Engine. It is also derided as the ‘choo choo’ Thomas the Land Train in some circles probably because the model is the least impressive It does allow the ‘build your own weapon load out’ that is rare outside of ATML.

Issues:
I have a big beef with the current Land Train rules - they don’t work.
For a war engine that's that's entire shtick is "choose your own weapons" it has done a remarkable job of giving some of the most useless choices in loadouts. The whole concept of the "Engine is 2DC, now add 2-4 wagons with weapons" is fine in principle - but the weapon rules themselves need a good, hard look at.

To review:

The Rad Bomb Car with 90cm, 1 BP, MW works great. It synergises with the main Doomsday cannon allowing it to get to the magical 4BP giving a second template. But it is a victim of it's own BP rules meaning that you would only ever want to buy a single Rad Bomb, as it is too expensive to try to climb to 6 BP.

The Siege Mortar Car is terrible. It is one of the only choices you can make where you can spend 50 points to make your unit worse. It does not combine with the DoomsDay cannon at all, removing the Macro ability making the shot worse in 95% of cases. Looking at the developer notes, the rules were copies from the existing Siege Mortar rules .

The Dragon Battle Car is....meh? 4 x AP4+ is of questionable usefulness, especially with the huge amount of cheap AP and Ignore Cover that already exist in the army (Hello Goliaths). Please tell me if I am missing something here with this car. Do people take it?

The Bezerker Car is okay. It boosts the CC and FF value of the Land Train and it's cheap.

In summary, I can see only one real useful build for the ol' train:

1 Rad Bomb car and 3 x Bezerker cars

For this price of 475 points I get a 6DC 4 Void sheild artillery piece that can sit on the Blitz and protect all the other artillery with the CC and FF value, and Indirect Fire the double-template MW barrage.

I like it...it's probably my most favorite of the War Engines, but I am sad that there isn't the scope for alternative builds.

Likelyhood of any changes
Yep. I've flagged fixing the Land Train as one of my three key changes to be made. Yep, i nominate that Land Trains are going to be one for the few instances where I break the 'grandfather' rule of trying to match 2nd edtion rules, and instead sacrifice history for playability.


So I want feedback
1) What role to you want the Land Train to take
2) What rules would you suggest, and
3) Are there any builds in the current rules that I'm just not seeing?

I like where you are headed with this mate
As I have not played a game against them as of yet i dont have any solid ideas yet. Happy to play yourself or sam (before he sells) and give feed back then

keep up the good work

Let's talk: Leviathan!



* i couldn't even find the original GW Photograph of the Leviathan, it's that old!


Analysis:
Ah the Leviathan! The War Engine with the role of 'Troop Transport'. Originally belonging to the Imperial Guard, it somehow got copied into the Squat army list (along with Tarantulas, Thudd Guns, Hellbores etc) and when 4th Edition Epic Armageddon rolled around and they were pulled from standard Steel Legion, the ended up in the Squats. The Thugrim List kinda got all the grandfathered 'junk' that the Imperial Guard no longer use.



Reaver Colossus Comparison:
Step 1) Take a Colossus
Step 2) Saw the battlecannons in half, reducing the range down to a mere 30cm
Step 3) Install a troop transport function

And you're done.

The loss of the decent long range armament of the battle cannons seriously weakens the Leviathan. The troop transport does not really make up for it as there is little reason to transport the relatively weak Squat Troops, especially as there are better options (Rhino, Termite) that are free!


Issues:
There is nothing 'wrong' with the rules of the Leviathan, other than the fundamental role that it is in - there is very little strategic gain in packing troops into a War Engine. I'd never take a Leviathan unless it was for fun, fluff reasons. Has anyone found a use for them?

In my mind, Leviathans exist in the Squat army list as one of the 'Grandfather's fluff' units. Not really tactically wanted but we're going to provide rules so you can use your old models. This is a category that I've mentally classified some other units like Rapiers and Hellbores.

Likelyhood of any changes
I don't have an agenda with changing the Leviathan at all. I'm content with leaving it as a weak but fluffy choice without having the effort spent on playtesting it.

I am aware that the Leviathan has started cropping up in other lists, such as the Cadians, with different rules. One option is simple change to the Cadian ruleset, but only if there is a lot of players pushing for it

Let's talk: Overall!

So discussion about rules that affect all four of the big blocks.

Close Combat Value



Onyx isn't the only one making this call. Squat WE's are fairly solid. Lots of DC plus a CC value of 4+ means that outside of troops with serious CC the Squats will probably pull through.

Let's look at the history

So where is this high value coming from? Like all things in this list, it's 2nd Edition.

Check out the rules for the Cyclops in 2nd Ed


These rules are taken from the 1994 edition of Titan Legions by Games Workshop. Permission has not been given to post them here, but I believe that it is posted here under the 'fair use' doctrine. If this photograph is in breach of copyright or on Taccoms forum rules, please PM me and I will gladly remove it

For those of you that can't read 2nd Edition, the column that you want to look at that is Close Combat value is labeled "CAF". At +12 the Cyclops has an amazing CC value, equal to a Reaver Titan, which in EA is sporting a hefty 3+ CC.

Also look at the Bolters weapon line. The Cyclops is carrying a staggering 10 ranks of bolters, which is where the high FF value is taken from.

Let's look at the math


A lot of people instinctively look at a unit's CC value in order to determine the effectiveness in combat, but when the 6mm hits the tabletop combat is more influenced by armour and special rules.

Let's take a formation of four terminators - a common Titan-hunting squad up against a Cyclops.
With 4 regular attacks and 4 macro attacks all hitting on a 3+ the termies are doing 2 points of damage against the Cyclops 4+ RA armour

In return the 4+ CC Cyclops is only doing 0.625 wounds back. Losing combat by 1.375

Decreasing the Cyclops CC value doesn't change it much

A 4+ CC cyclops is only doing 0.625 wounds
A 5+ CC cyclops is only doing 0.416 wounds
A 6+ CC cyclops is only doing 0.208 wounds

ALSO don't forget that War Engines are able to freely choose to allocate attacks to FF instead of CC if an applicable. Therefore in a large percentage of combats a 6+ CC Cyclops can just choose to use the FF value instead.

BUT there is a counter argument. If the CC value doesn't really mean much other than the reader's perception of the strength of the unit then there isn't too much trouble if we reduce the CC values of the big 4 War Engines to 5 or 6+. Remember that Squats are still viewed as an outlier list, and perhaps a little too strong, and changing people's perception about the War Engines may make it more likely that the list gains acceptance.

Points Costs:

Squat War Engines are pretty cheap for what they do. I can build a ATML Reaver with almost the same weapons and rules as one of the squat blocks and it will come out 200 points or so more expensive. While Reavers have other benefits (better speed, initiative, CC etc) there is a still a worthy call the the Squat Engines could do with a price bump.

Secondly, we want Sqauts to be balanced against other armies. If playtesting is showing them winning more than they should, the easiest and simplest way to pull the Squats back would be to put a 10-15% price increase on the war engines. I'm not going to implement it right away but if playtesting shows that squats are 'working great, but a bit to tough' I'll be playing the increase price card as my first trick.

Summary of Feedback Questions

So I need feedback on mainly:

1) Are we happy with keeping the Colossus and Cyclops as they are?
2) What can we brainstorm to do with the Land Train?
3) Should the Leviathan stay or become the Cadian version?
4) Should be bump the CC value of the WE's down to 5+?
5) How much resistance would there be to a 25-50pt price bump on the big three engines?

Also any other feedback just on these might Squat Tanks!

Yes, let's talk.

Although I am a fan of the general CC 4+, I agree that this should be changed to CC 5+ (or even 6+) they are too good/cheap at 4+.

Colossus & Land Train will be affected by ay changes to the Spotter rule ( I am all for dropping it), but still the Colossus is a good general choice for your options.

Cyclops - this is an all or nothing WE and I would like to see the missiles reduced to direct fire. To have indirect fire on the missiles makes them too good and things like Land Transporters, Buggies, Chimeras and even Wave Serpents just disappear before coming into the game. As you stated that is what artillery is for.

Land Train is interesting and I would recommend a re-stat for the Cars so that they are more even and work better together. Might be some cost increases needed here as well.

Leviathan take as transport so that you can have a heavy WE force or from the WE section if you are running out of points.

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Thematically and fluff states that the Leviathan and its ilk are command and control centers as well. If you're looking at giving it a purpose, that's what I'd aim for. Perhaps something like an SC replacement or better, has Improved Coms (which is found in enough lists/units that I've been meaning to bring it up to the ERC as needing to be a core unit ability at the level of fearless or scout is. I'm not sure how to fund the sweet spot statswise for this list but that's the theme/statement of purpose of the unit I'd try and aim for.


Tangentially, I love what you're doing here.

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I'm interested - which lists have 'Improved Comms'?

It's found in numerous Marine lists right now (mainly through the presence of the Prometheus) but it was also in the older Hereticus list as well. I think there's a few abilities that should be looked at as potential "lifts" to the core set (the BA Furious is another that fits well as a generalized ability that's got several versions of the almost same rule running around such as the SW Unblooded).

I don't want to go off topic here so perhaps I should start that discussion in the lounge?

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Is the rule you are talking about "Any unit in the same formation as this unit may ignore the 5cm restriction when using commander"

And it's not offtopic, we're brainstorming any ideas to make the Leviathan work. Ideally I'd like to sync up the Leviathan with the Imperial Guard ones

sorry i meant the more general discussion on "lifted" abilities into the core set is approaching off-topic (which was the direction of the reply to your quoted reply ).

Yeah that's the text of it. The actual list itself titles it, or at least for years and years did before the move into Dave's excellent CMS, as Improved Coms.

I'm wondering if that's the missing angle (or something else along that line of thought) to giving the Leviathan a purpose. It's good at directing troops and coordinating a battle who's presence in the Army allows better C&C. Careful positioning of assets to perform a sweeping engagement at the right time using an ability like that can really sway the outcome of a battle.

Food for thought.

edit: post coffee ingestion spelling corrections performed in posts above

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Very interesting.

Agree about the Cyclops and Colossus being fine but a drop to 5+ CC not being unreasonable.

Leviathan, it needs a points cut and should be available in both core and WE. One big problem with it in core is simply that you have to give up free Rhinos/Termites to take it. If Infantry (who btw are overcosted by about 1.5/2 points a base) had rhinos as an extra (say 10 points each like Chaos) then the Leviathan looks a bit more viable. You couldn't make bezerkers have optional rhinos as they'd be too cheap and likely get spammmed.

Land Train, agree in principle it's fine but the load outs aren't great. For me there are 2 current builds, a big one with a rad bomb as you say and in a 3k lists, 3 two car trains which gets you some serious firepower and durability on the board. Other than that they aren't viable. I'm not totally sold on the Epic UK changes as I think they make it less likely to be taken due to increased cost, for me the AA car could be key. Also, if you drop all the other WEs to 5+ Close assault why not keep the Land train at 4+ (or even go crazy to 3+ and increase cost) and make it the up close and personal assault war engine with 30cm AP shooting, bezerker cars, and dropping the rad bomb down to a 30-45cm range (with a points drop).

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I like what you are doing here. This is a great discussion. Though I am new to the board I have played a lot of 2nd edition Epic and I would love to discuss this with you guys.

My first question is this. If you change the CC from a 4+ to a 5+, may I ask you, what else do the Squat WE have for dealing with something like a Titan with a close combat weapon? From what I can tell, other than shooting it, the Squat WE don’t really have anything to help out in that department. I personally don’t believe it should be an auto loss to the Squat WE’s whenever they take on something like a titan, which I believe it would be if the CC were changed. The reason the Close Assult Factor on the Squat WE were so high in 2nd edition was so that they did stand a chance against something like a Banelord Chaos Titan of Khorne if they happened to get engaged by it in close combat. The Close Assult Factor was also so high to discourage titan hunting units like Terminators from close assaulting without pausing first to think if it was a good idea. People may complain about how dangerous the Squat WE are in close combat, but that was entirely the point. They are SUPPOSED to be dangerous.

This is quoted directly from the entry on the Colossus from the 2nd edition Ork and Squat Warlord book, page 58. “ Because the Colossus has a chance to rake attackers with its weapons in the first fire phase, fighting one in close combat is a daunting prospect even for Titans and Gargants.”

I’m in favor of leaving it a CC4+ but raising the cost of the WE. Squats do not have access to Titans, like pretty much everyone else does so what else can they do?

As far as the leviathan goes, they were sold to the Imperial Guard, who turned them into command vehicles, while the Squats used them as Transports to protect the Brotherhoods. So you could take up to 30 stands, even with their supporting units. This meant you were able to put Rhino’s, Robots, Guild Bikers, Guild Trikes, or any other support card worth of stuff you had, as long as the number of stands didn’t go over 30.
The way I used it (and if it stays a transport, will continue to use it, if allowed) was to transport my Squat Bikers and Trikes forward until they needed to get out (because I knew the Leviathan was gonna die that turn) or because they had an objective they had to race over to get. Keeping them inside the leviathan meant they didn’t take a lot of fire when the opponent was at his strongest, so that gave the bikes and trikes the ability to survive until the opponents forces were weaker, then move to taking objectives or assaulting. So I hope the Leviathan remains a transport.

As far as the Land Train goes, it has always been a strange machine. Its rule forcing you to take one of each type of battle car before taking a second one of a specific type meant it was never really good at doing anything well. It was always too generalized, with never enough firepower to do much. I think the Thurgrim list taking that out and allowing you to take any car you want is a good start at making it better, yet the Mortar car really does nothing good for it. So it seems you need to make the Mortar car better, maybe by saying that if you take more mortars it adds more barrage templates or turns the shots from the Mortars into Macro weapons or something.

So I was reading the thread started by Moscovian about giving the Squats some form of mobile AA apparently because once you leave the bubble of the Thunderfire Cannons AA coverage the squats get murdered by enemy aircraft. So he started asking what we could put mobile AA on so it doesn’t break the list. Reading through it, it seemed obvious to me that the most likely machine to do this would be the Squat Cyclops. The Battlecannon on the tower has always screamed “Snap Fire” to me when I look at it, snap fire being the 2nd edition version of AA. I have always thought it looks more like a mobile AA weapon up there on that tower than the Battlecannon that it actually was. So turning it into a 30CM or 45 CM 1 dice mobile AA platform does two things, 1) it makes the Cyclops more than just a titan hunter, it turns it into a support vehicle that covers your entire army by providing both Anti Titan and Anti air abilities. 2) It opens up the list from being a sit back in your corner and castle, to being one that can move forward and advance on the enemy with some aggression without being worried that every single time they do this they will get torn apart by aircraft.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

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