Okay guys, I've done a lot of thinking about these example Land Trains I posted up the other day. While I think the Artillery one sounds elegant and useful on paper, I am struggling to think tactically why you would fire any other missile other than the MacroWeapon.
Disrupt and IC are great and all, but are almost always substandard to plain old MW. As such, this new train is just as mono build as the old one.

Disrupt is only better than MW when you are shooting at something with lots of heavy Reinforced Armour, like Leman Russes, and then only if you are about to break them or are already broken.

Ignore cover is better than MW when firing at no-save troops in cover.

I'll go back to the drawing board on the arty version and see if I can make it work somehow.

Take the MW off the table if it makes it easier. There is plenty of MW on the other WEs.

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It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

A reasonable suggestion but would that invalidate the Land Train entirely?

I bring my Squat WarEngines for the MW, the Overlord and Iron Eagles for Anti-Tank, and the rest of the list is AP.

The Goliaths fill the Bp+Ignore Cover role very well, so if the land train isn't MW, all it can really have is....disrupt? And I'm struggling to find four different uses for four different carts.....

Maybe increase the BP of the non-MW carts? e.g. 3 rather than 1, so you get the extra BM. And/or add a small extra close support weapon.

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I reckon there's some merit in trying a few builds out where the land train is an assault unit so maybe look at ways strengthening cc and ff couples with shorter range shooting (that may or may not have mw).

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Steve, scroll back a page or two and take a look at the close engagement build train posted a few days back. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

I'm a bit late to the party, but when considering CC values it's also worth bearing in mind one of the original inspirations behind the Land Train - the Amtrak Wars books. The land train equivalents there had superheated steam nozzles on the outside of the carriages, anyone trying to attack them close-up ended up as a cloud of red mist and a clatter of stripped bones falling to the ground.

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Hi Elsaurio, loving the focus on getting the Squats updated.
I'm hoping to get some playtests soon - just want to start by summarising what the changes are that have been discussed so far.
Cyclops:
CC4+ changed to CC5+
6x Doomstorm Missiles lose IF

Colossus:
CC4+ changed to CC5+
No Spotter rule, so Doomsday Cannon loses IF

Leviathan:
Two different directions. Either:
1) CC4+ changes to CC5+
No Spotter rule, so Doomsday Cannon loses IF
25pt decrease to 350pt, or something similar to make it a more attractive option compared to Rhinos/Termites
Or:
2) Replace with the Cadian version.
As comparison, the Cadian Leviathan has 2 less Void Shields and oddly for an Assault Transport it doesn't have Thick Rear Armour. Also missing the EA(+1) Bolter Array.
It does have 120cm Doomsday, 45cm Lascannons and the Fighting Deck which potentially gives it a bunch more FF and shooting.
It's basically priced at 325pts.
Personally I think taking the Cadian version would lead to confusion (different ranges on Doomsday in the Squat list, similar Squat WE with/without TRA). I'd prefer trying to tweak our version (though the fighting deck does seem tempting ).

Land Train:
I've always thought there are 2 viable builds with the old Land Train - the one you mention with a Rad Bomb plus 1-3 Berzerker Carts which sits on the Blitz and sustains every turn. Or 4x Berzerker which for 400pts gives you a DC6, 4Void shield WE with good shooting and a bunch of 4+ Assault dice (14 if you have at least one enemy in FF and CC) but is slow.
Part of me doesn't want to give up that flexibility, but I do like the look of the assault themed Land Train.
In particular, the bump to 20cm, finding a use for every cart and adding some AA to the Train.
I did some sample builds to see if I can break the Train:
4x Demolition Mortar: 500pts
DC6 4+RA, 4 Void Shields, 60cm 3BP MW, 75cm 2x AP4/AT4, 60cm 12x AP5/AT4 Disrupt, Assault - 10x FF4+.

4x Rad Bomb: 600pts
DC6 4+RA, 4 Void Shields, 60cm 3BP MW, 75cm 2x AP4/AT4, 60cm 4x MW2+ TK(D3), Assault - 10x FF4+ (4 of which are TK(D3)) or 10x CC5?+ (4 of which are TK(D3))

I think we'd probably have to tone down some of the Carts a little else my opponents refuse to play me... haha
So, maybe for Rad bomb - make it Slow Firing or MW3+ TK(D3). Remove the EA+1 CC TK(D3) - you probably don't want to drop that fatboy too close to your Train.
Not sure about the others?
Berzerker Cart seems about right, though i'd probably cap the CC bonus at 3+ or 4+. I can't really see myself taking more than one anyway (for the AA and bump to CC4+) when the other carts are now better.
Maybe the others can be fixed by simply limiting the number in each train to 0-1 or 0-2 for each type?

that type of behavior/effect is best represented as an assault weapon stat with first strike/EA+1

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You might be right and I have to be honest I don't have time to really put it to the test. I'm just throwing out ideas and hoping something either works or inspires somebody else to come up with something viable.

Before I got my hooks on the list, train, each car acted like its own war engine in a sense following the next, and each one could be destroyed. Heck, the berserker car carried actual berserkers in them!! There were all manner of ideas on how to change it and eventually one of the other ACs came up with the idea of building it AMTL style. We went with that and simply changed the stats. The train never felt complete however, never felt like it was fulfilling its role. When you suggested going noncanon with the unit, I figured all avenues were open.

Getting back to invalidating the train, you might be right, but consider this... You could make the engine completely neutered. Have it generate all available shields and come with no weaponry whatsoever. It would be a generator with wheels - nothing more. If you wanted to put something on it like the fiery water hoses of death (see above post), it might work too. However, each cart could carry the personality of the train you'll make and with nothing on the engine to match it against, you might find making the weapon load outs easier to construct, balance, and price. Somebody may carry 4 rad bomb cars, or 3 berserker cars, or any number of combinations. You can still have your MW train too.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I think the plan is to harmonize the squat and cadian versions. The Cadian AC is in favour of that. I'll probably add Thick Rear Armour but leave out the Bolter Array (the fighting platform more than makes up for that).
We both want to add in some sort of 'Improved Comms' rule as suggested, but are going to leave it off for now as we can't see one that would suit off the bat (it can be added in easily later)




Yep you're right - that is broken! Thanks on this feedback, it's exactly the type of mistakes I need caught.

I am liking the Assault Train more and more, as each cart is (a weakish gun) + (a bonus in engagements). I like the way the bezerker cart synergizes with the list, Ie you need to bump up the CC to something useful in order to utilize the good CC from the other carts.

The rules I posted were made up on the spot and could do with a second try. As you pointed out, the Rad bomb is far too good when spammed. It might have to have a weak shooting if you're going to have a good TK close combat (and vice versa). Let me make another attempt at it.

I remember the original 2nd Ed Land Train. It sure was an odd one. You could shoot out one of the middle carriages and you would end up with two separately operating war engines! Unless you rejoined them.

I like the basic principle of the current 1.5 Land Train. i think that you did a good job of translating the 2nd edition list across to EA and most of the army list should stay as-is.

The Land Train one of the few units up for tinkering because:

1) Not all the carts are useful choices and there is one 2 decent builds.

2) As Onxy pointed out at the start of this threat, all the Squat War Engines are fairly similar with fairly similar roles.

i would be happy to tweak the current train just a bit to make all 4 carts equally useful and send the list in for approval. It would mean that the colossus/land train end up very close to each other so I thought it worth the while to open the doors to some wild brainstorming.

That being said, I don't want to go too far off the beaten path if we can avoid it. The Land Train engine model has one big gun and two smaller on it. The carts are a rocket, a mortar, a flamethrower and a close combat cart.

Let's look at the arty and engagement rules again and see if we can make them work, and put it to a poll.

Round 2 Land Trains: General Style

This Land Train is a slight tweaking of the current rules in the 1.5 rules set. It is probably the least changed and requires the least playtesting. On the downside it is means the unit is similar to the other squat war engines like the colossus without much of different role (rumble up a bit a shoot)

Land Train Engine
As it is now.

Rad Bomb
Cost: 100ts
90cm 2+ TK(D3) Indirect Fire, Single Shot

I'm liking the idea of giving the train some weak TK offense. This lessens the need to take a Cyclops as the only TK the squats have and makes the distinction between the Rad Bomb and Siege Mortar Carts more distinct.
If you don't like the single shot/indirect fire concept, it could be a 'every turn direct fire' but TK(1) or a 4+ TK(D3)

Siege Mortar
Cost: 75pts
90cm 1BP Macro Weapon

This cart picks up the old Rad bomb Rules. You probably only want one of these carts.

Dragon Cart
Cost: 75pts
Fire thrower: Range 45cm 4 x 4+AP Ignore Cover
Melta Cutters: FF +1 Macro Weapon

I increased the umph on this cart a little to make it more worth taking. It's also more expensive

Bezerker Cart
Cost: 50pts

As is now, except the auto cannon has AA5+


I could see myself taking a healthy mix of these carts in most games. I'd always take a single Siege Mortar at least. I'd take one rad bomb, or none if I had a cyclops. I'd add or subtract Dragon carts depending on if the rest of my army had close support IC or not, and fill up on bezerkers for cheapness.

Round 2 Land Train: Engagement Style!

This seemed to be the most popular of the brainstormed ideas, but as pointed out by Taiaha and others I was using Disrupt incorrectly and that you could over-spam a few of the carts.

Take a look at the Gargant rules in the base ork list. I accidentally made the previous version a lot like the Gargant rules, and I am going to try to aim as close to that one as possible, as it makes playtesting/points costs easier with a similar unit.


Land Train Engine

As it is now except the DoomsDay cannon reduced to 60cm.
2 battle cannons barrels sawn off and now have the same stats as the colossus Thunderers (30cm, AP4+/AT4+ IC)
Speed increased to 20cm

Rad Bomb
Cost: 100pts
Rad Bomb: 60cm MW 2+ TK(D3) SS
Radiation Vents: EA +1 FF MW

The close combat bonus is toned down and the rad bomb is only a single shot.


Siege Mortar
Cost: 125pts
Siege Mortar: 60cm BP1 MW
Demolition Bezerkers: EA +1 CC TK(D3)

If you are trying to spam the close combat TK, you're paying too much as the ranged weapon is really only giving a benefit the first time you buy it.

Dragon Cart
Cost: 75pts
Firethrower: 60cm 4 x AP4+ Ignore cover
Incendiary bombs: EA +2 FF Ignore Cover

Flamers are great for clearing trenches!

Bezerker Cart
Cost: 50pts
Each cart increases CC value by 1 up to a maximum of 2+
EA +1 CC
AA Autocannon 45cm AP5+/AT6+/AA5+

Round 2 Land Train: Artillery Style

i had to rework this one quite a bit to make it useful

Land Train Engine

As it is now except that the Doomsday Cannon is now the Heavy Doomsday Cannon and goes up to 4BP, MW
Engine is increased by 100 points


Rad Bomb
Cost: 100pts
90cm 2+ TK(D3) Indirect Fire, Single Shot

Exactly the same as the General Style


Siege Mortar
Cost: 75pts
Siege Shell: Single Shot
Special: Converts all Barrage weapons on the train to Macro Weapon, Disrupt for a single shot

Dragon Cart
Cost: 75pts
Fire Thrower: 4x 4AP4+ IC 45cm
Incendiary Shell: Single Shot
Special: Converts all Barrage weapons on the train to Macro Weapon, Ignore Cover for a single shot

Bezerker Cart
Cost: 50pts

As is now.


So this train is all about laying down 4BP Macro Weapon blasts (lets be honest. If you have the opportunity to go from 3BP MW to 4BP MW you are going to take it. So why not put it on the main gun so we have 4 carts worth picking between? If the 1BP MW is on a cart then it will almost always be taken, and then once.*

This build is all about sticking with the 4BP MW, with some single-shot ammunition that can provide TK, Disrupt, and Ignore Cover boost once per game.




*I might extend this idea to the other carts too. 4BP MW is such a huge boost it makes the other carts hard to balance against.