Emplacements mean a new unit. Are we really at this point that we need to add a new unit to the list?

The Squats represent one of the few lists that have absolutely no aircraft. The main flak unit can't be attached to any particular formation, so the point above is valid that they are vulnerable. And oddly enough the one thing they tend to be most vulnerable to are cheapy formations (like infantry) or scouts. The flak problem is such that I have watched entire games hinge on the destruction of Thunderfires. If they can last through turn two, you have a fighting chance. If they are wiped out on turn 2, you are pretty much toast. Thunderbolts and Fightabommers are the bane of the Squats.

As for their stats, they are what they are: two battlecannons and an AA shot. An AA shot that is the equivalent of a Space Marine Hunter, I must point out. In other words, the range and armament are not without precedent.

The 2-3 option isn't "gamey", Chris. It was designed because a lot of Squat players don't have gobs of these models. Thunderfires are rare and -given the army's dependence on them- the idea was to provide reasonable flexibility in fielding them.

We've actually discussed reducing the range on the Thunderfires to 45cm in the past, but my hunch is that it would result in players fielding even more of them to compensate, creating an even larger flak barrier and a greater degree of castling.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I would say that Emplacements although new to the Squats are a known quantity from other lists and won't cause a issue. GT this weekend and then I'll try and get a game in next week to test out emplacements in a game environment.

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Assuming the stats are the same as IG, how many? What price?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Gun emplacements attached to the Thunderfires. So look at 3 Thunderfires & 3 Gun emplacements for 200pts. Thunderfires gain cover and can be placed with a bit more aggression.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Well technically they aren't units they are terrain They give vehicles 5+ save and -1 to hit - in this case save you having to site them in terrain on the table.



The 2-3 isn't gamey - it is the way it is implemented. 100 for 2 or 175 for three? I wish I could reduce all my 3 strong flak to two for a 40+% price reduction. I would get a higher activation count and sacrifice next to nothing. A 3 strong unit breaks with 1 cas and comes back with 1 BM. A 2 strong formation comes back with no BM. 3-4 is a difficult choice, 2-3 isn't.



Why wouldn't you field as many as you can if they are that good? The flak bit is incidental. If you can build a castle that can't be touched from the ground, do so. Every game. The AA being 45 or 60 is just icing on the cake. If the castle doesn't win you the game, why are you bothered? If it does you have bigger problems than this gun.

Chris, I had the price at 125 for 2, but there complaints that they were too pricey, especially for a "mandatory formation". So I lowered the price on the pair. I suppose I can put them back where they were. I secretly would love to price them at 112 points and watch everyone have seizures.

I disagree that the flak castle can't be touched. Nothing is invulnerable in Epic (except lone Commissars that are roaming near your objectives). The problem that Elsaurio is speaking to however is that the Squat player really becomes forced into playing the castle formation. Too little flak and you pay the price to the aircraft gods. Too much flak and your army sits. A lot. In the back. Doing nothing. Except bombarding. That makes the Squats a one trick pony and nobody wants that. We already have the Necron who do that.

So how to fix this? Elsaurio speaks truth. Adding another flak option will open up options to the Squat player. A 30cm AA attack on a land train will not kill the list and it solves another problem in replacing the never-used-mortar car.

So let's talk emplacements... I am fine with the idea. They are readily available or easy to build/proxy. I'm still wary about limiting the formations to 3 thunderfires, however, due to model availability, I am wary about not offering the 2 thunderfire option. Are there any thunderfire proxies out there? If so, I'd feel a LOT better about the idea of taking them to 3 thunderfires only per formation.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

How about we try two and the option to add a third with three emplacements

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

If you give me an idea of what you're thinking stats wise for the emplacement options I'll try to playtest over the Christmas hols.

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I'd start off with Cover & a 5+ cover save.

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_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Played the other night with the land train aa, 1 two strong thunderfire unit and 2 overlords. Worked pretty well. My opponent didn't have a lot of aircraft by the balance seemed right. He steered clear of the main aa but was still able to attack with aircraft but at some risk. In return I was able to play a more attacking and I think fun for both game than with just the stock 2 thunderfire units

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I think the other point that's worth making here is while thunderfire spam is nasty. You're looking at £15-20 for 2 models in eBay. You could easily spend £60 on 300pts worth of models, with no obvious proxy, which doesn't exactly make squats attractive to new players!

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Thanks for the thoughts Steve, people will have to look at proxy models a I agree the cost of some of the Squat models are shocking.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

I use this as Thunderfire (the removable gun, I use the chassis elsewhere ) :

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Konig Armoured Regiment FanList: https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 41#p581941

Great idea, where would I find it?

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Dark Realm Miniatures (Pax Arcadia). I use the gun as Thunderfire and the chassis as Gorgon (adding a dozer blade (I have dozens from my LRs) it seems very much like the old Epic Gorgon).

_________________
Epic Armageddon in Spanish (from Spain): http://www.box.net/shared/3u5vr8a370

Konig Armoured Regiment FanList: https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 41#p581941