We can give it a go, but I suspect that I'll be looking to spend the points elsewhere.

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_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

You think a 75 point single AA flak shot would be better?

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Probably, but when you are looking at 3k games the WE section is always tight. I'll have a play with the list tomorrow.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Well, I suppose somebody could always add another 75 point cart if they wanted the extra AA.

I'll give it a whirl too.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

If Overlords are moving to support and Leviathans to transport then there is a fair amount of WE space freed up.



I'd pay 100-125 points on a hydra car and be content on that. I think it's roughly where it should be.

My personal wish would be:
*To give a little more AT (as it is something the Land Train and all squats lack a little)
*To give it a shorter ranger (To encourage the train to drive up closer rather than another artillery piece that sits back)


The army that I'd like to try out once in a while is Land Train (with flak and bezerker cars) driving up the centre, flanked by of of brotherhood warriors and bezerkers, supported but overlords and gyrocopters above. Something different from the static castle tactics. But that's just my personal wishes.

Elsaurio, Tiny-Tim brings up an excellent point about points. A half-hydra car (arm it literally as half a hydra) could cost 75 points, and then if you want two of them you buy another cart.

How do you feel about that?

If I go forward with this, I'd like to have this cart replace the mortar car.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Good to see you implementing the popular Land Train AA at last

There's an old mortar cart model but no hydra cart model. Since you're talking about replacing the mortar cart in the list (that is a pointless option currently) why not just reimagine it and fit the stats / idea to the existing mortar model? It seems better than suggesting people should convert a hydra armed cart and have their mortar cart models become useless.

It is distinctly skyward pointing and looks like it could fit the part of an AA weapon (you'd have to assume the mount allowed it to rotate around). Rename it an "Airburst Mortar", "Sky Mortar" or something along those lines and give an attack mainly or purely AA.

That's the idea really. If people want to remodel then they can. but the mortar car will become the AA car. I like the name airburst mortar too.

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

um what is the range you guys are considering on that AA car?

I am writing from the view of a regular Squat opponent. In my last game against the stunties, my opponent fielded 3 formations of those 0 movement AA guns, and placed them around his Blitz.

I had absolutely no long range firepower (best range was 45 cm), and those things were constantly on overwatch.

I really didn't have a proper way to approach this flak curtain without heavy losses, using aircraft inside it was suicide.
(60 cm of 8 AA 4+ shots)
with the range he covered most of the table that mattered.

If you put an AA weapon on the train and also give it 60 cm, I think you are going to take away one of the armies biggest weaknesses. With the amount of shooting it can deliver, and since they're also strong in numbers, I feel this may cause some problems.

cheers,

I'm thinking of two things:
1. Making it a 45cm weapon like the Hydra. It's on a train, and you won't get more than one of them very often. Due to the model size, a 30cm range could end up putting the model in range of aircraft, which would be rather odd. 45cm - 60cm seems to be an Imperium standard.

2. Reducing the range on Overlords to 30cm.

The train isn't going to do anything to the army that the Overlords don't already do. In fact, that is one of the reasons I want to reduce the range on the overlords.
On your games, the one thing to remember about those AA guns is that they are highly vulnerable to BMs (the formation has two units). Run some scouts at that thing. Deal with it the same way you would the Necron AA (only these are weaker and have less firepower and range).

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

I not entirely sure what you mean here?

Ranges are measured to and from the closest point of the model (or the model's base) and the Land Train is all a single long WE model in game terms. I assume you do this too? Not the exact point on the stand or model the weapon is on (too fiddly, detailed and variable depending on models used for an abstracted game like epic). This is the way we play it and which I have always seen it played (and I've played in several different groups across the world in the UK, Oz and NZ). If the AA had a 30cm range then the Land Train would always get to use it's defensive AA before enemy aircraft attacked (unless they have greater than 30cm range weapons).

I would suggest the Land Train have a powerful, but short ranged 30cm AA attack. Remember WE AA is very hard to suppress. This is why the Carapace Multi Lasers in the Titan Legion list only have 30cm range (see there are Imperial AA weapons with 30cm). A squat player could have a pair of Land Trains, on either flank of the board and double them forward, covering all the enemy's approach paths to friendly units with AA cover and and having longer range AA weapons on it would make this easier.

The suppression of WEs brings up a good point...

Others?

_________________
author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

So the "Airburst Mortar" cart would be 1xAP4/AT5/AA5 45cm for 75 points?

It's acceptable, certainly more useful than the current mortar.

How are the point calculated? It seems to be to be 50pts for a 'naked' cart (for the void sheild and DC) and then 25 points for weapon here?


I would still hold up a sign saying "Slightly more AT and slightly less range"

2xAT4
1xAA5 30cm for 100 points?

That would be better from a Squat player's perspective, but surely an airburst mortar (likely working by covering a large area with shrapnel) would be more of a threat to infantry than vehicles really?

I'd go for something like 30cm 1 x AP4+/AT6+/AA5+

The theory behind it was to give each cart a role
Rad bomb:Barrage
Bazerker: Firefight and engagements
Dragonfire: Anti-intantry

The only one missing is a cart with decent AT.

Secondly I would like to lesson the tendency to spam the Thunderfire Cannons. As it is the only decent source of AA it is also an excellent AT.

Too many thunderfires means you need to protect them with dedicated defenses and before you know it you are just castling up on your blitz marker which makes for a fairly boring game for the opponent