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Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32

 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:16 am 
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Thanks for the responses Moscovian :)

what about bike formations having scout? dont give it to trikes so if u take the trike upgrade ur messing with the ability to scout but a pure bike formation with Scout doesnt seem as broken as Iron Eagles having it...

not a fan of the Tarantula having Scout - scouts are normally flexible, mobile units...

ok i will get off the Scout soapbox :)

as for the Robots - if u remember the RT era 40K robots & SM dreads they were quite similar in size...its only in later editions of the game that the Dreads scaled up to the behemoths they are now whilst robots were pretty much eliminated from 40K, meaning they never got the scale up they would have received if they had continued as part of the game and thus been reflected in EPIC as well...so i think there is an argument they be similar to the dread, ie AV and Walker...add those and dont mess with the cost too much and i think u have a pretty solid, balanced unit.

Guildmaster losing Mounted and maintaining LV works for me, ie same as Guild Trike...i guess i am just looking for consistency across similar units.

i would probably go for Reinforced Armour over Invulnerable Save for the Guildmaster...Speed can be just as good as armour in combat...yes a trike may be more 'fragile' when hit, but u first have to hit the fast moving target...

can i ask why the Tarantula was given Autonom? i always remember them requiring a crew of some sort to control them...i would have thought Infantry would be more appropriate if its a crew serviced weapon...

sorry if asking too many questions - just want to get my head around this list properly as i think Onyx doesnt want me using Demiurg in his mid-year campaign, something about them being broken with certain combos :D

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:26 am 
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PFE100 wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
And quite frankly there is a lack of other units to use as scouts. Price could be adjusted accordingly so that the formation doesn't get out of hand.


Wants stopping you to modified the Iron Hawks, all you would have to do is give them scout and the ability to be bought as a unit. I'm sure that the figures is not hard to proxy or the Iron Eagles begin modified to suit it. It doesn't have the battle cannon and the stats in the list are pretty spot on to want you should have on a scout.

Moscovian wrote:
The more I think about it, the more I realize we must change the Tarantulas in some capacity because right now they are not going to be selected for any task. They can't be garrisoned because they are LVs. They won't be transported in Leviathans except on rare occasions. They won't be placed on the back line because of movement restrictions. They will be relegated to coming out of a pithead and that's pretty much it.


So change then to begin mounted, or leave them as LV and give the ability to change terrain save by +1 if on over watch and in cover. So if they in a wood they would be a 4+ cover save and not 5+ plus. Then they may be use as a blocking force. To hold flank or to slow a enemy advance. Yes you may need to improve their stats. I image that the enemy will need to use some force to break them as such.

Moscovian wrote:
I am not keen on having Warriors be Warriors in one formation and scout Warriors in another. It seems odd to me.

Well basically today's recon are just infantry or AV's, who are train better in the ability to gather information. They may/will have more bells and whistles in way of tech. So it would not be strange to have warriors as a unit with scout ability. So long as the unit is clear marked then there should be no problems using the current figures. There are examples on were the black legion guys have put three figures to a base, using chaos space marines and add some terrain, so that they look different to the other chaos marines.


1. maybe an Iron Hawk formation - spotter/scout on 4 Iron Hawks as iron hawks dont have the battlecannon

2. Tarantulas as Infantry with Mounted seems like a good idea - u have that with the Thudd Gun and i see it as a similar weapons platform...

3. most scout units in the game as far as i know are unique units (ie a formation that has no mirror elsewhere in the list), BL being an exception with the Chosen (their version of scouts if i have remembered the name correctly)...so i can see where Moscovian is coming from...

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:34 pm 
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I went to the Lexicanum to get the lowdown on the Tarantula.

Quote:
The Tarantula is controlled by a simple logic engine and infused with "the machine spirit," which allows it to operate without a controller. However, due to limits in the logic engine's targeting capabilities, it must be pre-set to fire in one of three distinct modes prior to being deployed into battle. In point defense mode the Tarantula will fire at targets that enter its fixed firing arc, designed to cover a particular area of the battlefield. Sentry mode is meant for close defense of the Tarantula's immediate area, allowing it to traverse completely to engage targets though at a shorter range. When engaged in interceptor mode, the Tarantula engages enemy craft such as drop pods which attempt to land in the area.[5a]

Each Tarantula includes its own targeting auspex and on-board power cell,[5a] though it is possible to hook multiple sentry guns to a single power generator for prolonged use.[6] Once deployed the weapon system will continue to operate until it has run out of ammunition or it is destroyed and, unlike normal sentries, won't doze off or daydream while on duty.[1]

Many types of sentry guns exist, although the two most common variants are equipped either with twin Heavy Bolters for anti-infantry or twin Lascannons for anti-tank duty.[1]

The uses for these sentry guns are many and varied, from defending a perimeter from surprise attack to establishing a roadblock or operating as part of a static defensive line. However, their lack of inherit mobility restricts their use on a fluid battlefield. A Tarantula can be carried on the back of a Chimera or by a Valkyrie in addition to their normal passenger compliment. Tarantulas can even be air-dropped via grav-chute and deployed from packing crates.[1] Drop Regiments such as the famous Elysian Drop Troops often use Sentry Guns equipped with grav-chutes dropped from Valkyrie airborne assault carriers to help form defensive perimeters around captured objectives,[3][4] especially when using them as part of a 'Castellan' Sentry Gun Defence Force.[5b]

Arbites sentry guns are often used for crowd control and riot suppression in addition to defending their precinct houses.[1]


While some variants may have used personnel, the Tarantula described above clearly is described as something more akin to an autonom (i.e. self functioning). Although the description does call into question even a small amount of mobility. Perhaps they need to be given a Movement base of 0 (zero) so that they can be garrisoned.

It wouldn't solve the lack of scouts in the list, but perhaps that is a problem that simply need not be solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:02 pm 
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There've been a bunch of Tarantula versions. The Epic 40K (and 2nd edition 40K) version had hover capability, and so could move quite well. They did often come with Servitors, too, so INF can be justified. And there's the Rapier version from the new HH book. And the current Tarantulas can, of course, still be transported.

Movement 0 and LV would bring them into line with frogbear's, to some extent. I just call mine Support Weapons and gloss over the issue (plus, now I'm totally claiming they're all on the Rapier chassis). :)

In any case, if you want modern Tarantulas, they probably shouldn't move much. If you're OK with older versions and/or some abstraction, they can move.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:47 pm 
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Well, the Squats should definitely be old school. There are no improvements to the Squats thanks to the bugs. A zero movement might be the way to go, but I am worried about making yet another static unit for the Squats.

Thunderfires are 0 cm.
Goliaths are 5cm.
Nobody wants to move Thudds or Mole Mortars.

But I need the units to make sense at the end of the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:46 pm 
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I think Iron Eagles/Hawks might be best unit for scout. If it makes them expensive so be it, or maybe armour can be reduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:05 am 
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Markconz wrote:
I think Iron Eagles/Hawks might be best unit for scout. If it makes them expensive so be it, or maybe armour can be reduced.


i was thinking maybe switching the Iron Hawks/Eagles to LV might be a solution as they have big fragile lift fans very susceptible to enemy fire...

@ Moscovian - thanks for the Tarantula info....i think 5-10cm movement, Infantry and Mounted would be a reasonable balance for the Tarantula when u look at the various sources of information...

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:00 am 
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I don't want to go off various sources, though. I want to go from the original sources - the original Squats. The list is an old school list and I want everything designed around that concept. Having a robotic sentry with people is self defeating. It also screws things up for the next Squat list (Trade Consortium). I hope that doesn't come off as too harsh but I have a vision for the list and Tarantulas as autonoms is a part of that. Unless it proves impossible to fix, the Tarantulas will not be based with infantry.

As for the Iron Eagles, they are certainly sturdier than Valkyries and those are AVs.

Honestly I see the best options for scouts as:

Tarantulas. These models are representative, remember; not necessarily occupying that exact space on the board (thus the ZoC). With a slow/no movement, they are set up to harass anyone who wanders into their area of control.

Berserkers. Adding scout to these units would up the price and certainly help address the potential 'berserker spam' problem.

Nothing. The list so far has gotten along without scouts and I am fine with that being the final solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:39 am 
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ok cool - well i will see how it goes on Sunday against Onyx and see what feedback comes out of that game :)

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:20 am 
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Well, the old Tarantula in Ork and Squat Warlords could hover on gravitic reaction motors. Could move 10cm on the charge. And they were apparently crew operated where time was insufficient to install remote control systems (Squat Tarantulas apparently being non-robotic in that sense).

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:10 pm 
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played a 4K game against Iron Warriors under firm hand of Onyx.

My List:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pithead

Warrior Brotherhood
+ Brotherhood Warlord
+ Grand Warlord

Robot Formation

Iron Eagle Squadron
+ Iron Hawk Gyrocopter

Iron Eagle Squadron
+ Iron Hawk Gyrocopter

Warrior Brotherhood

Robot Formation

Mole Mortar Battery

Thunderfire Battery

Berserker Brotherhood

Bikers Guild (with 3 trikes)

Bikers Guild (with 3 trikes)

Goliath Mega-Cannon Battery (2 x Goliath Mega-Cannon)

Colossus (BTS)
+ Living Ancestor

Cyclops
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

besides my appalling inability to roll activations and rally broken units, there are a couple of units i think need tweaking and after discussing with Onyx, thought the following would be reasonable changes.

Goliath - suggested changes to make them viable - DC3, critical destroys the cannon (drop the units within 15cm cope a blast marker), 4BP per gun. No upgrade to 3rd gun. As they are in the list they are either a take lots or none type weapon. with DC2 they are easy to break, especially if the enemy have similar long range firepower and better Strategy rating...very glass cannon unit for the points u pay for them...in our game the Goliaths didnt get to fire once as Onyx broke them in turn 1 & 3 and i didnt rally them at the end of Turn 1, admittedly he had the perfect counter battery weapon in his Ordinatus...

Mole Mortars - increase range to 45cm, change Disrupt to Ignore Cover. with these changes either maintain points cost or increase points cost to 200?

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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:23 pm 
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Interesting points. When I played Squats vs IW with an Ordinatus I made sure that I placed my Goliaths late on and out of range of the Ordinatus. Didn't help though as the extra BM from the Ordinatus hurt other formations instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:08 pm 
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Hello gentlemen ! (supposing no ladies around there ;D )

On Saturday we managed to celebrate our epic "games day" and so we had a couple of games. So i had the chance to fight eldar and tyranids with the following 3k list

Berserker unit+ berserker upgrade
Warrior brotherhood+warlord+Grand Warlord+Warriors
Warrior brotherhood+warriors+warriors (hugh mob ;D )

iron eagle+spotter
iron eagle

thunderfire (2)
thunderfire (2)
thunderfire (2)

Colossus
Colossus

...and i did well. One victory one draw.

So far i have not made use of the tarantulas, neither for the thud guns. Due to the lack of AA i have to field plenty of the thunderfires, almost 3-4 (static) Units.
In combination with the beserkers they perform shielding units, to delay the enemy. I used the robbots in the same way , as blockers. Like mentioned before the seem to be too expensive (beside the fact i love the models) and i do not like the lv classification.
Sure, there wont be change because of my personal likes or dislikes :tut ..but ...robots, Av or inf (!) 5+ reeinforced , walker (+Autonom) and they are in ...

Same for the golitath.Like the models, but they break and die that fast. According to their we status Armour 5+ is :nooo .I think that their firepower is ok, theier range ist short but it is ok ;D , . What about 4+ or 5+ reinforced or 5+ and 3 damage points to make them (a bit) more durable ?

Wish list to be continued
gretings

Stefan

PS; like the thought to make sure that the list contains enought units that may be moved. Thunderfires, Goliath thudd guns, mole mortars , rapiers and are stationary...

PPS land train; shield for each agon, but the engine itself (the most important part) does not own one ? :tut


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 Post subject: Re: Squat Update: Thurgrimm's Stronghold 1.32
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Thanks for the report Stefan,

Well I'm not the greateset fan of the current stats for the Goliath having a pair gives you a 6BP shot every turn. Yes the armour is poor, but it is just a great big barrel. They want to hid with some AA and ground support near them and the rest of the army attacks, attacks, attacks.

On the Land Train issue, you have to remember that the Engine and Carriages act as one, so it will have a minimum of two Void Shields as you are forced to take a minimum of two carriages. By the Engine not having one it then restricts the total number of shields that the whole train can have to five. Also the Train is targetted as one and not each section separatly so the engine benefits from the shields as long as they are up.

Keep on testing, Tim


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