I'm taking a good hard look at my ancient nemeses the "Glavian Pilot" and "VTOL" rules right now...

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Glavian pilot was removed in the last version. VTOL is probably also going to go, but it is actually a GREAT idea, it solves many of my problems with the list (activation spam, aircraft spam, formations of fliers transporting other formations not allowed by the rules, etc) in one stroke of genius. It's going because for some reason it just sits badly with people and noone's given me a good reason why - it just "feels wrong" is pretty much it.

Both are linked through the Departmento Munitorum, and ultimately in any war effort under the warmaster.

Anyway, what's the point here? "When the Ecclesiarchy declares a War of Faith, it must follow the dictates laid down by the Decree Passive, meaning that it is the exclusively female Adepta Sororitas that provide its standing fighting forces." That's what I think this list should embody. Perhaps a limited Frateris Militia formation plus Redeptionists.



Yes. It also goes into a lot of detail about the divide between the Mechanicus and the Ecclesiarchy - and that the Ecclesiarchy has zero influence on the Mechanicus except in keeping the non-mechanicus elements under control.


Give me an example of a Mechanicus units being involved in a War of Faith. There are plenty of examples of the divide between the two. Mechanicus elements that do hold to the duality of the God-Emperor is a far cry from actually following an Ecclesiarchical War of Faith...

Anyway. The point is that the Ecclesiarchy and the Mechanicus are two entirely separate elements and as aspects of the God Emperor their forces shouldn't be muddled together if only to preserve the distinction between the two. Disallowing units from a rival cult seems quite appropriate!

Ain't covered in the background to my knowlege... doesn't mean it's impossible that an Emperor-worshipping Forgeworld would agree to act as support* to a force of Sisters though.

*As an ally, not under the Sisters' command structure, just like Guard Regiments or Marines allying with Titan Legions.

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Okay, so we're at "theoretically possible, but very unlikely given the general antipathy between the organisations". Not, I feel, a good reason to include the units in a pure-Ministorum list.

I agree it's going to be less common than cooperation with less overtly religious Imperial forces, and dependant on the theological leanings of the Forgeworld/Titan Legion in question.

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Well, if the limit's down to 25%, they're already effectively limited to just Reavers and Warhounds under most circumstances. Could cut Reavers as well...

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Well, they cant take Multimeltas at all, so it seems a bit silly. Also, 6 was a common number of Dominions, as this is all that can fit inside an Immolator.



I'd say this would be a really good point, except that this is such a key formation in a Sisters list.



Good question. A little plasticard and greenstuff, I'd say, or a neat banner or somesuch. Its not impossible.



I dont know many other Sisters players, even though we have 2 other armies at the FLGS. However, I always take 2 units of Retributors, each with 4 Heavy Bolters. Making these rending with Divine Guidance is just too sweet, as seriously 90% of the armies at our store are Marines. Add an Exorcist and this is my normal list.

I tried going with 2 tanks and 1 unit of Rets, but the extra Faith Point generated by the Faithful squad, as well as more rending options, actually made the redundancy of a second Exorcist not as important to me.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the Sisters, to me at least, are more of an "Up Close" army than a sit-back-and-fire army. Once I figured that out, I started playing them differently and had more success with them.

That did not, however, mean that I attempted to remove all shootiness from the list. Thats why I put a 2nd unit of Rets in with Heavy Bolters. This also led to me relying less on Storm Bolters and more on Meltaguns and Flamers/Heavy Flamers, and more on strong units of Hit-and-Run Seraphim than just footslogging Sisters. Up close and personal was where the list did its damage. Without ranged support, however, they became susceptible to being outshot and also gave key enemy units free reign over where they moved in anticipation of my unit's maneuvering.

In Epic, the Sisters need units like Retributors to have greater range, because if everything had only 15cm shooting, we could get pinned and tied down much too easily. We wouldnt have the range to threaten enemy movement without being in assault range, and everyone knows there are times when that is JUST BAD(tm). Meltaguns on 2 little Dominion stands that must be mechanized and must be added to existing formations doesnt seem so bad, and if Lord_I wants to strip more from the list, I dont think denying a characterful and unique Sisters unit from the list does any justice to balance.

Thats why I pushed so hard for the changes to the Doms and Rets, and Im actually quite pleased with how they stand as is.

If I fight too much more on the point, however, I may be accused of doing what other posters are doing in other development threads, and so Im open to them being changed as needed.

I realise. It's a fudge - we would be generalising "Dominions" as "close range melta specialists," which is what they are used as in 40K and giving them the multi-meltas that should be archetypal for the list except that noone takes multi-meltas in 40K at all. Plus we really could do with a multi-melta armed sisters footslogger unit as we already have units with heavy bolters and heavy flamers, which are the three key weapons of the sororitas.

It's not an exact translation of the unit from 40K. Does it need to be?

We could add a "designer's note" that 2x multimeltas either represents Retributors with multimeltas or true Dominions with meltaguns across the board. Note that it is also very similar in stats to Fire Dragons that effectively have meltaguns. Calling them "multi-meltas" would be an abstraction that uses a pre-existing weapon profile and keeps everything neat and tidy. Not to mention I can rename my Retributors as Dominions and we have consistency between lists.


Yes... except a Dominion unit with two multi-meltas would be even better as it could add MW AT firepower to the 15cm heavy flamers of a SoB formation. It fulfils the same role and we're just fudging the size of their equipment (insert crude sisters joke here )


Really? Fair enough. I've never seen a competetive Witch Hunters army with anything less than 3 Exorcists as they are great against troops and obliterate enemy vehicles.

Anyway, back to Epic. Clearly we want a melta-armed Dominion Squad and a heavy bolter armed Retribution squad. Ideally the Dominons would be able to add AT fire at 15cm range shooting as well as assaults. Giving them multimeltas fulfils this role, avoids the use of meltaguns (too fiddly for Epic and no precidence for using them) and is only a tiny fudge in terms of army construction...

The one thing I will say about me and 40K is that I am NOT competitive in the game. My losses have always been higher than my wins, although I had a decent record with the Sisters. I just dont "get" the game.

Epic, however, suits me much better

I am not opposed to giving Doms the multimelta option. In fact, it could be argued that their strength would INCREASE with this change.

What I am feeling strongly about is that Doms need a different role on the battlefield than Rets have, and I feel, as is in the v1.1 list, such a difference exists.

I also like that Doms need to be attached to a Sister unit instead of acting as their own formation. It actually protects them, much like a hidden power fist inside a Space Marine Tac squad Keeping Rets with 2x Heavy Bolters and allowing Doms to tag along as an addon with Multi-meltas could really work. I'd caution against increasing their price too much, however, if at all. They are already a costly upgrade (because 75 points for 2 stands doesnt cover the cost of their transports, and Immolators are TWICE as expensive as Repressors and 6 times as much as a Rhino...

I think the expanded character options (palatines and cardinals) adds a lot to the sisters/ministorum flavour of the list. I also think faithful definately needed a boost, and the sisters characters needed a reason to be taken. I think the system meshes nicely, especially in this list which has a slightly closer-in focus on the sisters.



It's not palatable to me. Dominions are fast moving, anti-tank reaction squads, who are always deployed with transport for mobilty and firing on the move. They don't ever use heavy weapons, because large, cumbersome weapons don't fit with their role as a fast moving reaction force. I'm not willing to fudge and say that several meltaguns count as a multimelta, because they just don't. Equally, meltaguns are incredibly short ranged; half the range of a bolter for example. They simply don't deserve a ranged shot.

I'm sorry if this messes with your list, so if I have to I'll rename my version of retributors to a varient of the name. "Fire Support Retributors" or something. I'd rather not have to though.

The only reason meltaguns haven't been included in any official list is because there are no units in other lists whose iconic weapon is the meltagun. For dominions this is definitely their iconic weapon and role, and the stats of meltaguns are simply obvious. A squad with this many meltaguns absolutely deserves a MW FF shot.



I think it's more than justified. As you mention below, there are multiple mentions to the sisters working with Guard and PDF forces outside the influence of the inquisition.



I'm perfectly happy to remove baneblades once the chapels/cathedrals are sorted. Sentinels are common in PDF forces, and pretty low tech for guard, so I don't see any pressing need to remove them. Russ could possibly go too, though if you cut to much you just end up with a list that's useless.



It gives it a role for long ranged AT, but then it will retain that role anyway, as the only other untis with ranged AT are the baneblade and russ, both of which I'm happy to cut. Bear in mind that with your list, for example, if you take a pure sisters army you have no AP firepower longer than 15cm in range. That's just not viable. Even in my list you'd only have AP6+ from the Exorcists at over 30cm.

Without the ability to cause some kills at range the army will be completely hopeless. Seconded Guard or PDF forces are completely fluffy, and already notably much more restricted in this list than yours (1 per convent instead of a free choice), and serve an absolutely vital role.

Redemptionists never use heavy weapons, so are completely useless in that role.



I'm happy to cut to 25% allies to show they don't play well with others, but I'm not cutting everything entirely, as that would leave the list crippled and boring, as well as not representative of the background.


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I'm not interested in having huge, non-canon war engines that utterly dominate the list. If people want to use such units they remain free to use your list to represent them. I imagine the only reason they've been built so big was because your list had the DC12 Basillica. The DC3 idea would be a superheavy tank equivilent, something close to the Stormlord, which is a baneblade varient that has some transport capacity. This would be much like the myriad of 40k sisters baneblade conversions out there, perhaps with a larger Exorcist launcher. The DC6 version would be a titan equivilent, unsure on the weapons as of yet. Something reaver titan sized seems quite reasonable to me as a mobile cathedral.

Fire Dragons have weapons exacty equivalent to meltaguns. A stand of Fire Dragons is precisely identical to my multimelta SoB except it has only one 15cm range shot. Functionally, Dominions with meltaguns should be pretty much identical to a stand carrying limited number of multimeltas. All I want to do is use an existing weapon profile rather than a new one for the exact same effect with a really miniscule deviation from the 40K rules.

Call the meltaguns Fusion Guns.

Problem solved.

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I'd be willing to move on allowing them a 15cm shot, but I absolutely will not be including dominions in my list with "multimelta" listed in their weapons. I will not wilfully ignore an absolutely clear piece of background, that the rapid mobile strike force of the dominions never use heavy weapons, as that would make no sense at all given their role.

If fusion guns deserve representation then so do meltaguns.

The compromise solution then is a dominion datafax with multimelta stats, but "meltaguns" as the name, and a note in your list that they can equally represent retributors with multimeltas.

I think that's a bad compromise and you should rename the unit if nessesary to avoid it.

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