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Rant

Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:36 am

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Rant

Ok I'm going to rant. I bought a copy of the third edition rules off ebay the other day for 99p. Which was a good deal I thought.

I read through them last night and it seems that with this edition of the game they made a huge jump backwards.

With most of the games workshop games I've played you roll to hit, you roll to wound, then you see if you can save the wound with a saving throw. This works and to me is logical.

Space Marine (Epic) simplified this a little bit by removing the roll to wound, which is fine as it's not on the same scale. Roll to hit (testing your luck with dice) roll to save (testing opponents luck) Seems fair. Where does this fire power larky come from? :angry:

The third edition rules (and I'm expecting E:A to be the same) doesn't really follow any sort of rule. It's almost like they wanted to revamp the idea but came up with a really rubbish way of doing it.

Why oh why did they go along this route. Just so there was significant changes to justify a new release?

It seems to take alot of the fun away from it all. No more scatter dice to determine where a titan was hit and the heinous crime of all no more Squats..

No wonder NetEpic is gaining a strong following.

/Rant.

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Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:52 am

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Quote (Hena @ 23 Mar. 2006 (09:21))

I must I don't remember much of the earlier version.

Firepower? You mean AT/AP/MW division or assaults firefight/close combat thing? Or something else?

Rating is always good, but I'd like some more info

What seems to happen is you add up all the units firing fire power value and check what that is against a chart. Then that gives you a figure for hitting.

I'll re-read it later this eve, only went over it once and that was enough for me!

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Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:16 am

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It seemed strange because you could have 20 units of orks with fire power one, all armed with bolters, yet they could kill war machines becuase of the combined fire power level! Previously in second edition rules they couldn't touch them, which to be honest is the way it should be!

I'll stick to Second edition and Netepic I feel!

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orkybob

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:22 am

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Enderel

Have you not checked out the E:A rules? Our little group find them excellent (not perfect but they work well). Download them off the SG website (for free) and have a read. Hopefully you'll be pleasently surprised.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:25 am

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I actually really liked 3rd ed

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Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:55 am

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Quote (orkybob @ 23 Mar. 2006 (10:22))

I've already downloaded it but not had time to read them yet. I'll save judgement on them until I give them a thorough read.

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Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:59 am

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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 23 Mar. 2006 (10:25))

I actually really liked 3rd ed

It just feels so clunky so far.. I thought new releases were meant to stream line rules and allow more people to get to grips with them...

I'm obviously not open minded enough for this sort of change...

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netepic

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:17 pm

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Quote (Enderel @ 23 Mar. 2006 (08:36))

Rant

No wonder NetEpic is gaining a strong following.

/Rant. ?

Brief alteration here, NetEPIC HAS a strong following

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semajnollissor

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:17 pm

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Quote (Enderel @ 23 Mar. 2006 (02:36))

... The third edition rules (and I'm expecting E:A to be the same) doesn't really follow any sort of rule ...

Ok, just to make sure everyone is clear on this point: the mechanics used in E:40k are NOT used in in E:A.

E:A uses to-hit AND to-save rolls.
E:A has weapons that have their own to-hit values.
E:A has AP weapons (cannot hurt armoured vehicles)
E:A has AT weapons (cannot hurt infantry)
E:A has MW weapons (can hurt anything)

Please do not compare E:40k to E:A without looking at the rules for E:A.

E:A does have fewer rules that are unique to particular units compared to SM/TL. Also, titan damage diagrams and critical damage tables are absent. Therefore, your milage may vary.

As an aside, the rule mechanics first seen in E:40k are used in BFG. No one ever had a problem with them there, but I think that's because BFG didn't replace as popular a game as SM/TL.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:52 pm

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Location: Nashville, TN, USA

What Semaj said.

I also agree with TRC that the E40K rules (third ed) were a vast improvment over SM/TL, despite some few quirks. It made for vastly more dynamic play and the tactics were far less cut and dry.

I would also point out that the mechanics engine is very similar to the one used in BFG and that game has a strong following, so obvioulsy, many people find it to be a very enjoyable game system.

But, back to the main point, EA mechanics share very little with E40K.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:55 pm

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I know a lot of people like the E40k rules, but I hate them, pretty much for the same reasons that you do Enderel. That edition was too watered down from previous editions for my taste and I thought the whole "firepower" system was silly. I admit I was excited when I heard there would be a 3rd edition, but I was sorely disappointed once I read the rules. Yes, there are a few things I like and the minis were gorgeous and it does play faster than SM2, but in my opinion it was the worst edition. The SM2 rules can be a little clunky, but I really like the diversity and the quirkiness of it all.

Even though the E:A rules are written on the skeleton of E40k, it is a better edition. A lot of players say it's the best edition yet. I haven't played it enough to make that judgment, but I do like the E:A rules. Whether I will like them better than NetEpic, however, remains to be seen.

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Enderel

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:10 pm

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Quote (semajnollissor @ 23 Mar. 2006 (14:17))

Quote (Enderel @ 23 Mar. 2006 (02:36))

... The third edition rules (and I'm expecting E:A to be the same) doesn't really follow any sort of rule ...

I've downloaded E:A rules so I'll get around to reading them at some point soon.

E:A has AP weapons (cannot hurt armoured vehicles)
E:A has AT weapons (cannot hurt infantry)
E:A has MW weapons (can hurt anything)

I like that idea... ?

although why can AT weapons not hurt infantry? ?Are they missles that cannot lock on to humanoid size objects? Seems strange.

Please do not compare E:40k to E:A without looking at the rules for E:A."

Point taken, but I did only say my expectations, not a specific comparison, so horse off of please! ?

I'll go read the E:A rules ? :blush:

BFG did take over from Space Fleet and that was really popular ?

?

When I started playing GW games there was three main games (W40k, WHFB, Epic). ?They killed Epic completely I feel with the third edition, I'm hoping that E:A does something to recover the prominance Epic had once before. ?(Wanders off to read the PDF for E:A so he can have an informed opinion on the subject!)

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Lord Inquisitor

Post subject: Rant

Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:31 pm

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Location: Norfolk VA USA

As others have said, E:A is much more 'roll to hit' 'roll to save' like other games. There's no 'roll to wound' stage, which keeps things simple - the toughness of the unit is simply its armour save. So, for example, land speeders have the same armour as predators - the pred has thick armour, while the speeder is agile and difficult to hit.

It all works very well, it is a nice system. What really surprised me at first, and still can raise an eyebrow sometimes, is just how far unit can move in a turn if they want to - this isn't necessarily unrealistic, but it takes some getting used to.

As for AT not hurting Infantry, the logic is that a weapon needs a reasonable chance of taking out a UNIT of infantry to count as an AP weapon. So a lascannon might well take out a trooper, but then there are 4 more - the unit hasn't really been taken out.

This is an abstraction - a heavy bolter can take out a rhino in 40K, and you get odd situations with the AT-can't-hurt-INF thing. I think the last game I played we decided it rather odd that a formation of 4 predator annihilators (12 lascannon!) couldn't hurt an infantry detachment - a lascannon isn't going to hurt a unit, but 12 should!

Still it works well in general, and there are further rules to make up for odd situations. For example, light vehicles like land speeders are vulnerable to both AT and AP fire - a heavy bolter should be able to take one out.

Enough waffling from me. Check out the rules!

Lord =I=

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