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n00by basing questions

 Post subject: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:59 pm 
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Hello folks! I am helping my brother assemble and paint a small force of troops. The basing instructions in 3rd (brother picked Third Edition based on the apparent consensus that it is the best of the bunch) edition seem very loose, which is, on the one hand nice, but on the other hand makes my brain itch, as I have much more past experience with systems with comparatively explicit basing requirements. My impression is that no-one really cares that much and the cool kids will still let us play, even if our basing is slightly different from theirs, within reason. Is that correct?

I have seen a huge variety of basing schemes in photos of other folks' troops -- sizes, shapes and number of figures to a stand seem all over the place, but of course, people rarely specify what rules they favor when posting glamour shots of the troops, so perhaps some outliers are not for 3rd Ed.

The "getting started" section of Third Edition shows, for general infantry, five figures on a long skinny strip, provided with the figures. Some of the troops bro purchased (mostly via Ebay) are based this way, on 10 x40mm rectangular stands. Others are 5 models on 20x20mm squares. Are both OK in 3rd Ed?

Question 1: Do size and shape actually matter (within reason). Would round bases be OK as long as they were about 400mm in area?

Question 2: I have spotted some epic scale troops in big mobs, like 20 models on a big stand--is that for a different rules set than 3rd Ed? Question 2.5 Is five per stand most common for infantry?

My understanding is that infantry support weapons should be based one-to-a-stand, with the weapon and 1-3 crew, as appropriate. Question 3: Should these also be on 20x20mm stands (or equivalent)?

Question 4: Is there a preferred base size for individual heroic type leaders--like 10mm bases for example, or should they be on 20x20s too, perhaps with an entourage?

Question 5: The 3rd Ed Getting Started suggests 40x20mm bases for bikes and cavalry. Would 35x 25mm be an acceptable alternative? (Brother has a lot of these left over from FOW ::) ).


I am probably overthinking this, but I would prefer some feedback before getting out the superglue. I am not that familiar with the rules yet, being mainly interested in the painting part, and later building some terrain, but I am looking forward to some games, eventually.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:51 pm 
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I haven't played nor seen anyone play E40k, so I'd be willing to bet anyone you might find wouldn't really care about basing and would just be happy for a game. Given they swapped from 20x20 to 12x40 for that edition, I'd be surprised if the 20x20s weren't allowed at the very least.

EA is 3-7 for infantry, 2-5 for bikes and 0-5 for field guns, with base sizes between 5x20 and 40x40 being allowed. I'm guessing E40k was similar, in any case I can't see how it would affect the rules much (especially if both armies were similarly based). 20 on a big stand seems like it would be a different game though.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 7:58 pm 
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Thanks for the info. So five figures on a 40x10mm is sort of the current standard, but reasonable variations are usually acceptable, as far as you know? I realize you are not a 3rd Ed player. Is there a different set (or sets)of 6mm scifi rules that are more popular? My rules research has been mostly about base sizes, so far.

An example of a stand with 20 models per stand on some stands can be found on this fellow's Tumblr page.
I guess he must be basing for one of the other rulesets, but he just refers to his "Epic 40k" troops without specifying further. Hopefully my brother and I will find opponents other than each other (gets boring playing only one opponent, all the time).


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:30 pm 
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Epic Armageddon has the most active player base of all the Epic editions:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org

Other than that the only other popular set of sci rules would be BattleTech. There's a few others out there, but none have a player base like EA or BT.

That guy you link to said he's playing E40k, but using different basing. That's more than likely an indication that the basing doesn't really matter that much.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:18 pm 
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You're getting mixed up - third edition is a pretty unpopular version of epic. It was different to other versions, very abstracted and sold poorly. 4th edition or 'Epic Armageddon' is what the considerable majority of people play (and there's still a healthy Epic Armageddon tournament scene in the UK and a few other places).


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:23 am 
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Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine - 1e
Space Marine/Titan Legions - 2e
Epic 40k - 3e
Epic Armageddon - 4e

Most people call Epic, Epic 40k. Not knowing that they're referring to a specific edition when they do.

NetEpic is a fan version of 2e, conplete with a rules rewrite and lists. NetEA is just fan lists for 4e plus some FAQs, the rules are the same as 4e.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:12 am 
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Thanks for the breakdown, Dave. The whole epic-scale 40k genre seems pretty balkanized into competing versions, and it is pretty confusing for anyone starting out. I am still setting up my first batch of figures to paint--applying paint to those tiny little **********ers will be an education--never painted anything smaller than 25mm before. Anyway, it will be a little while before the rules matter.

Quote:
You're getting mixed up - third edition is a pretty unpopular version of epic. It was different to other versions, very abstracted and sold poorly. 4th edition or 'Epic Armageddon' is what the considerable majority of people play (and there's still a healthy Epic Armageddon tournament scene in the UK and a few other places).


That is useful info. Basing for Armageddon seems pretty loose, based on a rules compendium I located--basically anything goes as long as one stand dimension is at least 20mm, and no dimension (I am assuming non-diagonally) is longer than 40mm. So it seems anything on a 20x20mm or 10x40mm base would work for either rules set. Is that correct?


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:25 pm 
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Pocho Azul wrote:
Question 1: Do size and shape actually matter (within reason). Would round bases be OK as long as they were about 400mm in area?
Size and shape does not matter as much as E40k initially suggests. While the game moved to 12*40, i think somewhere buried in the 3 rule books it does explain that troops based on older systems are still perfectly OK. In any case, even if it didn't yes you can do it yourself and it won't break the game's functionality.

Question 2: I have spotted some epic scale troops in big mobs, like 20 models on a big stand--is that for a different rules set than 3rd Ed? Question 2.5 Is five per stand most common for infantry?
These horde/mob bases are aesthetic only and function as a normal 5 figure stand. A base in the E40k rules is up to 5 infantry – but having a mob modelled on there makes no functional difference as long as all players are happy with its use.

My understanding is that infantry support weapons should be based one-to-a-stand, with the weapon and 1-3 crew, as appropriate. Question 3: Should these also be on 20x20mm stands (or equivalent)?
Again, up to you, you could put them on 12*40s or 20*20s or etc. The E40k Battles book shows photographed examples of support weapons on non 12–40mm basing.

Question 4: Is there a preferred base size for individual heroic type leaders--like 10mm bases for example, or should they be on 20x20s too, perhaps with an entourage?
They should still be on normal size bases and would normally have an entourage (see the photos from E40k – the ork and marine characters have entourages)


Question 5: The 3rd Ed Getting Started suggests 40x20mm bases for bikes and cavalry. Would 35x 25mm be an acceptable alternative? (Brother has a lot of these left over from FOW ::) ).
Yes, fine. p31 of battles book does specify 40*20 as well, but using 35*25 will not break the game system in any meaningful way.


All of the suggestions you have made seems perfectly reasonable and in the spirit of the game. If anyone insisted you could not use your 35*25 bike bases in a game with them, I suspect you would encounter other problems trying to play a game with that person, before you encountered a rules problem using 35*25s :)

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:51 pm 
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Welcome to Epic, Pocho Azul.

Pocho Azul wrote:
Hopefully my brother and I will find opponents other than each other (gets boring playing only one opponent, all the time).


Where are you from? The community is a bit hidden so it is easy to miss people nearby.Maybe we could help.

Pocho Azul wrote:

That is useful info. Basing for Armageddon seems pretty loose, based on a rules compendium I located--basically anything goes as long as one stand dimension is at least 20mm, and no dimension (I am assuming non-diagonally) is longer than 40mm. So it seems anything on a 20x20mm or 10x40mm base would work for either rules set. Is that correct?


Yes. Just the small nitpick that the official bases are 20x20mm and 12x40mm, not 10x40mm, just in case you want to make more to those you have or buy so they do not stand out visually.

In EA base sizes makes very minor differences, and any small advantage that could exist has its a disadvantage, so it is something not worth the time to even think, save maybe if you went with the maximum 40x40mm or the minimum 20x5mm but if you met someone like that i would think something along the lines Apocolocyntosis wrote.

Dave wrote:
EA is 3-7 for infantry, 2-5 for bikes and 0-5 for field guns, with base sizes between 5x20 and 40x40 being allowed. I'm guessing E40k was similar, in any case I can't see how it would affect the rules much (especially if both armies were similarly based). 20 on a big stand seems like it would be a different game though.


If i remember well, in the Epic40k rulebook it said nothing about base sizes, but in one of the Epic magazines or in a FAQ it was written that using the square ones was Ok.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:23 pm 
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Thanks for all the very specific answers. I have been looking through the Epic Armageddon rules compilation v2.0 and it looks interestingly different from 3rd Ed.


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:27 am 
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Careful with the comp. There's plenty of typos and outdated lists.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:54 am 
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Thanks for the heads up. Right now I am just trying to figure out the differences between the two systems, in a general way. Is there a more up-to-date comp, or do I just need to check the originally published rules and latest lists, to be sure?

Some details are a little puzzling. I noticed that, for example, there are no infantry mortars in the comp, but were added for Catachan troops in a couple of fan-made army lists. I have a few Catachan mortar teams to paint, so this got my attention. Also, formations are a little confusing. The rules state that the formation sizes are per scenario, but the only scenario I have found (so far) that specifies a formation size is the training scenario. I guess I should move questions like that to the EA forum.

@Abetillo I am in southern New Hampshire.

Right now I am primarily concerned with figuring out painting 6mms (sooo tiny).


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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:02 am 
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The link I posted above in my second post (it's also in the my sig) has the most recent lists.

Generally speaking, you're going to find E40k more abstract. It's more "zoomed out" and doesn't have a whole lot of granularity between units and weapons. EA on the other has that granularity and less abstraction. The morale mechanic in EA is also one of the better ones I've seen.

EA's main scenario is the "tournament game" scenario, which is detailed in section 6. The lists in the rest of section 6 are what most people use when playing this scenario or one of the others from this forum/SG site/internet. However, nothing stopping you from just putting together a formation however you see fit from the units in section 5. That's why they were separated in the original EA rulebook, tournament play is only one way to play.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:33 am 
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Pocho Azul wrote:

@Abetillo I am in southern New Hampshire.

Right now I am primarily concerned with figuring out painting 6mms (sooo tiny).


You can check https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... re#p533872 for an idea about the Northeastern US area, but Dave will know a lot better than me.

About painting, it being hard is quite the common myth. It is a lot easier than it seems, it just needs to change the way of thinking when painting from the one in 1:56's.

Here you have some guides.

https://guildfordgamesclub.wordpress.co ... iniatures/

https://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd ... 9&p=604268

https://www.instagram.com/p/BnaqKN9ibOB

https://6mmfantasy.blogspot.com/2019/03 ... erors.html

https://cranium27.wordpress.com/2015/10 ... y-marines/

http://www.adpublishing.de/html/iron_hands1.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2JWXHWAc4g

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Last edited by Abetillo on Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: n00by basing questions
PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:39 am 
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Southern New Hampshire as in Nashua? I'm about 30 minutes from Nashua, and we've got a group of about 16 regulars that play EA once-a-monthish down at the Portal in Manchester, CT.

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