I didn't want to highjack Toco's thread anymore than I already had, but the discussion got me thinking about detachment building in Epic 40k.
First off, I want to say that the Armies book and the flexibility in building detachments is one the things I find most fascinating about Epic 40k. I've spent tons of time fiddling around with army lists and seeing all that I could squeeze into an army, and loved every minute of it. Its also cool in that it enables you to utilize letovers in your bitz box, whereas in SM2/TL, everything was structured to fit into set detachments. SM2/TL was a real pain in the ass sometimes, as getting some minis like Eldar Aspects to make up a detachment could be quite costly, and other times you ended up with a lot of extras you never used. It also could get a little boring using the same detachments all the time. However, it was lightning quick to set up and play with little notice.
Epic 40k on the otherhand, could be quite draining to try and spontaneously set up a game without pre-made detachments, especially for big games, if you wanted to give you detachments any real thought. But if you had the time, it allowed for imagination and creativity to blend in with strategy, and could be a lot of fun. The problem though, is that the rulebooks really don't do a good job of showing a new player that detachments should be built with a purpose in mind, rather than resemble an Ork or Tyranid horde.
Take the refight scenerios for example. First of all, 3 detachments on 3 is a lame game. But worse, by creating mob-like detachments you end up thinking bigger is better, and don't really realize until they are mixing it up, that a "well rounded" unit doesn't really excel at anything, nor does throwing so many eggs into one basket. You really have to learn this through trial and error. I think someone who has some degree of military history and tactics can recognize that certain units should be grouped together to take advantage of their strengths, but its really never suggested how by the authors.
And its a major change from the other Epic games.
Adeptus Titanicus - Titan datacards. Yes you could design your own, but right out of the gate there are examples.
Space Marine - Set detachment sizes, but with the note that you can create your own, but not mix up vehicles and infantry, probably due to the lame morale rules for infantry. But the idea is there.
Codex Titanicus/White Dwarf - Set detachments sizes, but assuming the same note above, since BRs are still provided individually.
Space Marine v2 and Titan Legions - Set detachment sizes and thats it. Take it or leave it.
Epic 40k - Here's a ton of minis go at it. "Yeah but do what with them?"
I posted these pics on another thread I highjacked, but wanted to show them again here. They were posted on Boardgamegeek, and when I first saw them I instantly realized he just painted up the contents of the main Epic 40k box set, with an addition of a few units, to be able to play all of the refight scenerios.
They hit me like a bolt of lightning. I thought it was brilliant. I mean, who just sticks with the contents of the starter box???? No one! So I ended up setting out to do the same thing. But then it got me thinking, how would you make structured armies from this set if you didn't want to play the refight scenarios, and what guidance would you use? Well, I primarily used SM2, and only added two Attack Bikes, Warhound, and Boarboyz unit to make two apposing armies of near identical points. I don't know why I didnt think of this sooner. I've attached the PDFs I made (I prefer using these sheets when I play, as opposed to the larger sheets that came with the game).
So anyway, my friend and I who I was playing SM2 for awhile with, are going to try out Epic40k soon, and I thought of using the refight scenarios, but will prob use these detachments. It will be more familiar to him.
I also think it would have helped Epic 40k to have made detachments smaller, and to provide some kind of meaningful organizational examples. Like, maybe only one support unit for every 2 main choices, and limit the number of main choices for most armies, but still allow the wide freedom they provide on what those choices can be. I still want to use those leftovers from my bitzbox!
Back when EpicA playtesting first got started I brought this up to Jervis, and its kind of how we got the Formation + Upgrades system, but I was never crazy about the way he did it. In truth, after four versions of Epic I still can't agree on which system is perfect. I am more inclinded to say SM2 is better for noobs, and Epic 40k is more for players who have 40k or Epic experience, because I don't see how someone who has no experience with 40k, would really understand the benefits, or lack thereof, of mixing certain units together, unless you have some story behind them.
