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| New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=30302 |
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| Author: | Commander Karth [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Hi all, I am just discovering Epic for the first time and wanted a little help sorting out which edition would be best for me. I totally skipped over Epic back in the 1990's (Warhammer Fantasy consumed all my money and attention back then) but lately I've been going through a 90's GW gaming renaissance of sorts, picking up 40k 2nd, Talisman 3rd, Necromunda and filling out my collections of Mordheim, Warhammer Fantasy 4th and Battlefleet Gothic. But when I started to look into Epic, I came to two conclusions: firstly, it looks amazing and secondly, it seems impossible to wrap one's head around all the variants and editions. As far as I can tell, Epic has always been a sprawling leviathan (Adeptus Mechanicus, Space Marine and then all the expansion boxes). I can't collect all the rulebooks to give them a proper review, so I am relying on your help! I'll do my best to describe my gaming preferences and then please describe your favorite edition of Epic and how it fits (or even differs from) my interests. Also, what kinds of prices should I expect to pay on eBay for these things? I just picked up an Epic 40k starter on eBay for $100, and I'm not sure if I overpayed or not (it's missing the rulebook but looks like it has a handful of extra Tyranid stands, with everything else still on sprue). Here are my favorite GW games and what I like about them: Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd Edition (1987) - I like this game because regiments do not fight one melee and then disappear off the board. The real staying power allows you to play fun games with much smaller forces, which is another big plus. I like a big battle now and then, but I often find smaller games much more satisfying. Warhammer Fantasy Battle 4th Edition (1992) - I love the chrome in this game. Every army plays very differently, nearly every regiment and character comes with special rules and can be customized with equipment and magic items. I also really love the cards! The magic system, the magic item cards, the Chaos gifts... Cards add a whole other dimension to the game, which I love. Warhammer 40,000 2nd Edition (1993) - This is probably GW's best game from the 90's. It strikes the perfect ground between skirmish and battle, with gritty close combat rules (the same as Necromunda). It also comes with all the benefits of WFB 4th Edition, with tons of cards for wargear and psychic powers, datafaxes which make every vehicle act in a unique way, special rules and mechanical flavor for every army, iconic setting fluff and much more. Plus, the models from this area just cannot be beat. Necromunda (1995) - Necromunda added a lot of finer detail to 40k gaming, with injuries, great campaign rules, experience, skills and just more customization of your forces. This can be said of Mordheim as well. Battlefleet Gothic (1999) - Battlefleet Gothic also had a great campaign system, but it's best characteristic is how it combines large and small scale. It is a game with a very dark and moody atmosphere, where every Cobra gunship and torpedo mattered, but you still had a sense of the grand scope and sweeping strategies of the battle. It felt both claustrophobic and some how vast and epic, which fits the setting of deep space perfectly. So I only have an inititial sense of Epic, since it is so hard to research if you weren't exposed to it back then, but here are the areas that I find promising or troubling: Space Marine 1st Edition / Adeptus Titanicus - These seem the most difficult to collect, with few options for playing alternate factions. Space Marine 2nd Edition / Titan Legions - These are often praised as the best edition, with the most detail and chrome. I've heard they feel very close to 40k 2nd Edition, which is a plus for me, and the models are also some of the best (Mk I Landraider, Imperator Titan), although again very difficult to collect. Plus, there are tons of cards, which is great (although the seemingly rigid force compositon is a turn off). Epic 40,000 - It seems this edition doesn't get a lot of love. I can't tell how much this uses cards (it seems there are fate cards and possibly psychic cards?), but the composition rules seem by far the most flexible, which is great. I like the idea of upgrading my detachments with leaders or spare stands of different troops. The game seems to use the firepower chart that BFG used, which is neat, but there also seems to be little distinction between different types of weapons? If so, that seems somewhat bland... Epic: Armageddon - This seems even more stremlined than Epic 40,000. I've heard that faction playstyles are most unique in EA, but I've also heard that EA diverges the most from past GW game mechanics (which I am sort of ambivalent about). I understand NetEA is very close to Epic: Armageddon, so perhaps all the same things could be said about it as well. NetEpic - This seems to streamline Space Marine 2nd Edition, but at the cost of changing a lot of core game mechanics. It also seems less popular than NetEA. So, what is your favorite edition and why? And what would you recommend for my gaming preferences? Thanks! |
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| Author: | Apocolocyntosis [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Based on what you wrote about BFG, I would suggest EA. EA is less streamlined than E40k, but E40k was seen be many to take abstraction a step too far. EA is slightly less abstract than E40k, without getting bogged down in pages of special rules etc. EA was the last GW rule version and is the most popular system still played. NetEA is the name given the the continued community development and balancing of EA, mostly seen in the creation and maintenance of army lists. The UK and France also have their own lists for EA for use in the respective domestic tournament scenes, which may or may not be relevant depending on where you're based (though given use of '$' i'm assuming not UK or France!). |
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| Author: | mordoten [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
NetEA/EpicUK all the way for me. Best miniature game ruleset I've ever had the pleasure of playing! |
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| Author: | Kyrt [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Agreed, epic Armageddon is not more streamlined then e40k, it is the other way around. Yes the formations are more restricted (which incidentally is why the game is so very well balanced and popular for tournaments) but the units themselves are a lot more flavoursome and the mechanics have more detail. Compare the stat profiles for the eldar aspect warriors between e40k and EA, that's a good example IMO. 2nd edition is more detailed still but consequently a bit slow. Epic40k is basically BFG on the ground, it gives a great feeling of strategy and tactics and has the most flexible army composition, but the units can feel a bit bland. Epic Armageddon tries to take the best bits from both, it feels very strategic but each unit type has its own feel and so too do the armies. Eldar feel like eldar. Looking at your requirements I would say EA, however the one thing missing is that it has no concept of cards. In truth your love of the games you've indicated suggests you actually like different games for different reasons. For instance BFG has very nice rules but when it comes to it there are only about 6 different weapons in the whole game. Whereas 2nd edition 40k is the other end of the scale with its detail and wargear. |
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| Author: | The Bissler [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
I have to put a wee mention in at this point of my Net Epic Evolution rules which are based on Net Epic and 2nd edition but with activations where players move and fire their units all at once. I've even made a hand video tutorial!  http://youtu.be/zDpIIaI6UFo |
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| Author: | Markconz [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Hi and welcome Karth. To be honest, given what you've said about past 40k and fantasy editions with all the cards and so on, you might actually prefer Netepic! Though if you like BFG then Epic Armageddon or Epic40k might be ok too. Others have it right, streamlining procedes from Netepic (least), to Epic Armageddon, to E40k (most) with some accompanying loss of detail as you streamline more. In terms of support, Epic Armageddon and Netepic have the biggest following I think. Personally I'm an Epic Armageddon junky, with a soft spot for Epic40k, but I'm happy to give other systems a whirl. E.g. at the moment I'm trying out a fast play variant called Laserstorm, written by one of the original Netepic authors, see here: http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/20 ... nario.html As to figures, in addition to e-bay make sure you check out the new manufacters which have sprung up in recent years, e.g. Dark Realm http://www.darkrealmminiatures.co.uk/store/home.php Troublemaker http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/ Onslaught http://www.onslaughtmini.com/ Microworld http://www.microworldgames.com/collections/6mm-scifi And there are others. The ranges are expanding and there is some great stuff there, and ebay prices can be quite ridiculous at times, better to support these new companies. |
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| Author: | moredakka [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Depends on the size of game you wish to play and the time you have to play it in. Small to medium sized games EA, big games with large numbers of troops E40k. For me the whole point of 6mm gaming is to have huge armies on the table so i prefer E40k which is less detailed unit wise and streamlined/designed with that goal in mind. But if your looking to use a smaller number of miniatures with more detailed unit stats then well EA is probably your best option. So do you want to be a captain EA, or a general E40k the choice is yours. |
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| Author: | primarch [ Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Hi! There is only one question you need to answer when selecting a version. What are the people your going to game with using in your neck of the woods? If you are the "only" one and your going to "create" a gaming group then choose whatever you fancy. Primarch |
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| Author: | Commander Karth [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Thanks for the advice so far! I will give EA another look—I gave it a quick pass over initially because I tend to only like 90's GW rules, but that is not always a fair attitude to have, especially when the incomparable Specialist Games crew is involved. How does this look for a starting army? It mostly uses just the stuff I already have (two sprues of Space Marines) with a couple of added extras. I am thinking of painting these up as Dark Angels: Tactical Detachment (Commander, Razorback) 375 Tactical Detachment (Librarian, Razorback) 375 Devastator Detachment 250 Assault Detachment (Chaplain, Razorback) 250 Reaver Titan 650 1900 Total With the remaining points I was thinking of either adding a Dreadnought to each of the Tactical Detachments or perhaps adding in a Strike Cruiser (which takes me a little over, but I could drop the Librarian and Chaplain to do it). How big is a 2,000 point game? Would that take 3-4 hours or so to play? And am I right in understanding that a Terminator Detachment with Land Raider transports costs 725 points? That's quite expensive! Are they really that good? |
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| Author: | mordoten [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
A 2000p would take 2-3 hours depending on how well you know the rules and how much analysis-paralysis the players suffer from. A high activation count is very important in E:a so having expensive units in your armies is always a gamble. And no, i've never seen anyone use termies in land raiders. People either teleport them in or fly them in Thunderhawk. |
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| Author: | Sayrewolf [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Commander Karth wrote: Tactical Detachment (Commander, Razorback) 375 Tactical Detachment (Librarian, Razorback) 375 Devastator Detachment 250 Assault Detachment (Chaplain, Razorback) 250 Reaver Titan 650 1900 Total With the remaining points I was thinking of either adding a Dreadnought to each of the Tactical Detachments or perhaps adding in a Strike Cruiser (which takes me a little over, but I could drop the Librarian and Chaplain to do it). How big is a 2,000 point game? Would that take 3-4 hours or so to play? And am I right in understanding that a Terminator Detachment with Land Raider transports costs 725 points? That's quite expensive! Are they really that good? If you are going for a 2000 point game then you might as well drop the librarian and buy yourself a extra activation with some scouts. As you can't add a razorback transport to an assault detachment you can add it to the scouts to give them an AT attack too. Six activations! Makes a big difference for marines. Better yet drop the reaver and get a pair of warhounds (I fully support using a reaver though cause it's interesting and different) then drop the librarian and buy a bike or land speeder detachment depending on mission. 6-7 Activations depending on if you pair the warhounds up! That's using the GW List though can't be bothered looking up the epicUK codex. |
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| Author: | kyussinchains [ Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Terminators in land raiders in a landing craft can be a brutal formation.... lot of points but masses of reinforced armour and engagement power.... tbh they are better off used in the whitescars list (where terminators + land raiders are only 600 points, bargain!) or black templars who can make use of the superb land raider crusader variant which loses shooting power for engagement buffs, if they're bringing terminators, you're going to be engaging, a LOT, and the crusader just makes them even better at this I'll say that EA probably has the biggest community, with active tournament scenes in the UK, Oz, USA, Germany, France and Sweden among others, it's definitely optimised for balanced tournament style play, but works perfectly fine for narrative campaigns and special scenarios, it's my favourite version, and I was a HUGE fan of 2nd edition Space Marine/Titan Legions Honestly I'd suggest trying all of the rules out and seeing which you prefer, if you're not planning on entering tournaments and have a small group, you could even bodge your own rules together using the best bits of the other rulesets While we all have our preferences, there are no 'Bad' rulesets in terms of fun, if you have the models then nothing is stopping you from playing all of the variants if you want 
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| Author: | Kyrt [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
As a general rule, it's usually not worth adding "flavour" upgrades, it being better to get more formations. There are some exceptions though of course (eg Razorbacks for spare points, and chaplains can be worth adding to assault-focused formations). This is potentially one of the downsides to EA, ie it has these upgrades and without them the formations can be a bit... plain. Yet the game itself disincentives them. But then, that is because of the strategic nature of the game which is itself a positive. |
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| Author: | Commander Karth [ Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: New to Epic: Which Edition for Me? |
Thanks for the advice everyone. After a thorough review of the different rulesets, I think I am settling on Epic 40,000 as my system of choice. I came to this decision after finding each edition had its strengths (the Titan hit tables from Space Marine 2e just cannot be beat for coolness, and Armageddon has an intriguing amount of detail as well even if it isn't bursting with goofy/fun charts like SM2). At the end of the day, though, Epic for me should be Epic... Not just in quantity of models on the table (which E40K seems to win hands down) but rather for the scope of the game. Epic 40k's frame of reference is perfect: pulled way out to regimental and even divisional level detail. The strategic concerns that E40K highlights and puts in front of the player really is ideal and fills a niche that my beloved Warhammer 40k 2e just doesn't. Armageddon is a bit too close to Warhammer 40K, and seems to be 1.5x the scope while retaining a lot of the little details. I can't really justify playing both Warhammer 40k 2e and Armageddon—they are distinct, but overlap in some areas. E40k doesn't, although it is contiguous (where a game of Warhammer 40k stops, a single assault action of Epic 40k begins). That said, it seems you can still have a very fun game of Epic 40k with only a handful of models by using the super flexible army composition system to build three or four very small detachments for each side (that's actually the first "historical refight" scenario in the E40k box set—three detachments of Marines, a squad or two and a vehicle each, vs a single Space Ork Gargant). There are also tons of meaningful choices in both how you build and how you use your detachments... A detachment of all Terminators in any other edition only has one or two uses, while E40k detachments can be built in any way and used in any way conceivable. I guess I'd rather be an 'Epic General' than an 'EA Captain', in moredakka's words! But thanks for all the recommendations. Armageddon definitely looks like a cool game on its own, and I could totally see it being a replacement for Warhammer 40k (not the brilliant 2nd Ed, mind you, but definitely 3rd+). |
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